IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[ImaginalDisc]

It helps, but doesn't really answer the dilemma... what if that happened outside the occupied territories?

gnome, let's assume for the moment that a responsible solider fires back on the crowd after ample warning, and showing due restraint. Is it not the leader's (The leaders of Israel and Palastine in this case) responsability to never put their civilians and soldiers in that kind of a situation again? Ideally, in a hierarchial military, the leader is responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

Agreed?

 

[Chaos]

gnome, let's assume for the moment that a responsible solider fires back on the crowd after ample warning, and showing due restraint. Is it not the leader's (The leaders of Israel and Palastine in this case) responsability to never put their civilians and soldiers in that kind of a situation again? Ideally, in a hierarchial military, the leader is responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

Agreed?

It´s not that simple. Since the Nuremberg trials, at the latest, it is established that "I´m following orders" is not an excuse.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

It´s not that simple. Since the Nuremberg trials, at the latest, it is established that "I´m following orders" is not an excuse.

True. However, "My commander put me into this position. I had no legal reason to refuse, because danger is part of my job, and then the situation escalated. I responded with all due caution and restraint, using the minimum of applicable force as a last resort. My commander had information pertinent to the situation, which I had a demonstrated need-to-know. I made a formal complaint upon returning to base, filled out a full report, and then my commander did the same thing to me tommorrow," might hold more water.

 

[Mycroft]

Have you even read into the firebombing of Dresden? Are you away that a conflagaration at 1500 degrees C roared in the heart of the city, and that german civilians were suffocated by the lack of oxygen, roasted alive in their bunkers, or sucked out of their homes by the air rushing towards it? Are you remotely aware of the magnitude of the bombing campaign on Germany during WWII? Approximately 30,000 people were killed in the course of two days of bombing. 24,000 building were destroyed, representing all but a few thousand buildings in Dresden. A total of 400,000 german civilans were killed in allied bombing campagns targeted specifically at civilians. We got off for it, vae victis.

The legitimacy of the bombing is hardly the open and shut "justified" case you make it out to be.

War is by it's very nature a terrible thing. It is brutal, ugly, and inevitably destroys the lives of countless innocents.

If we are to make war less brutal, to impose standards on it, we must apply those standards to both sides in any conflict. It makes absolutely no sense to criticize one side that sometimes kills civilians while pursuing combatants when the other side specifically targets civilians.

 

[Chaos]

True. However, "My commander put me into this position. I had no legal reason to refuse, because danger is part of my job, and then the situation escalated. I responded with all due caution and restraint, using the minimum of applicable force as a last resort. My commander had information pertinent to the situation, which I had a demonstrated need-to-know. I made a formal complaint upon returning to base, filled out a full report, and then my commander did the same thing to me tommorrow," might hold more water.

Okay.

 

[Mycroft]

Hey, what I posted is not my position. It is the position of the guys who are wielding the big "anti-semite" sledgehammers.

I have not seen such a sledgehammer used in this thread. Could you point it out to me?

Besides, said guys - one of them especially - will immediately go Mr Hyde anyone ever tries to explain something. "THEY" ARE EVIL, that´s all anyone must ever want to know, any attempt to go beyond that is sympathizing with terrorists. Remember that: you must not explain. You must accept what they say, unless you want to be a jew-hating anti-semite terrorist sympathizer.

In other words, evidence?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

War is by it's very nature a terrible thing. It is brutal, ugly, and inevitably destroys the lives of countless innocents.

If we are to make war less brutal, to impose standards on it, we must apply those standards to both sides in any conflict. It makes absolutely no sense to criticize one side that sometimes kills civilians while pursuing combatants when the other side specifically targets civilians.

Objection to our treatment of Dresden is not failing to object to the Nazis. I just grew up thinking we were better than they were. I'd like to think that in future conflicts, we hold ourselves to high standards.

 

[Mycroft]

I refuse to answer pointless questions posted by people who cheer whenever innocent civilians are killed in "targetted" attacks. Or those who think new-born German children were justly punished for their crimes during the Allied bombing raids.

Any individual child who dies during war has my sympathy, but the responsibility for the German children who died in Dresden ultimately lay with their Nazi leaders who took their nation to war to begin with, not the RAF generals who sent their pilots to fight them.

 

[Mycroft]

Israel doesn´t have the luxury of resorting to the "bomb them, and let god sort them out" strategy exclusively, either, since that one will make the problem worse, not better. Besides, if you never try anything else, you can´t claim everything else is worse.

You missed this post where the circumstances of the bombing were explained. It's hardly a case where the strategy is "bomb them and let God sort them out."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1328722#post1328722

Further, it's simply not true that nothing else has been tried. If you study the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict, you will learn virtually everything else has been tried.

Your pathetic, thinly veiled attempt at labelling me an anti-semite is noted. If I had still believed, after two years on the receiving end of the hate-mongering, lies and character assassination that you and your kind prefer over rational argument, that you are interested in honest discussion, I´d be cured now.

I can think of other possibilites allowed for by Wildcat's words other than that you are an anti-Semite. I'm sure you read it differently than I did, but the most important element that I took away from it was that he doesn't believe you're a neutral player.

 

[Orwell]

It helps, but doesn't really answer the dilemma... what if that happened outside the occupied territories?

What if it happened in Canada, while you're at it? There's a point after which the "what ifs" loose connection with reality.

 

[Mycroft]

Objection to our treatment of Dresden is not failing to object to the Nazis. I just grew up thinking we were better than they were. I'd like to think that in future conflicts, we hold ourselves to high standards.

We should hold ourselves to high standards, but we should hold others to those same standards. To do anything else is to apply a double-standard.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

We should hold ourselves to high standards, but we should hold others to those same standards. To do anything else is to apply a double-standard.

I could not agree more. Our treatment of Dresden falls far short of them. However, that's not material to the issue at hand. We've come quite derailed.

 

[gnome]

gnome, let's assume for the moment that a responsible solider fires back on the crowd after ample warning, and showing due restraint. Is it not the leader's (The leaders of Israel and Palastine in this case) responsability to never put their civilians and soldiers in that kind of a situation again? Ideally, in a hierarchial military, the leader is responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

Agreed?

I don't know if leaders can always reasonably foresee when soldiers and civilians might come into conflict. One side decides to defend a base of strategic import... locals sympathetic to the other side object to the presence of soldiers and it erupts into violence. Who is responsible?

 

[Mycroft]

I could only hope that I was armed with less lethal weaponry. Especially if it were kids.

Which is why the IDF, who according to CapelDodger, "doesn't give a toss about dead Palestinians" often equips their soldiers with rubber bullets and other non-lethal options.

I've noticed that even when I disagree with you, what you say is well thought out and worth listening to. Thanks, you're a real asset to these forums, and one of the reasons I enjoy them.

 

[gnome]

War is by it's very nature a terrible thing. It is brutal, ugly, and inevitably destroys the lives of countless innocents.

If we are to make war less brutal, to impose standards on it, we must apply those standards to both sides in any conflict. It makes absolutely no sense to criticize one side that sometimes kills civilians while pursuing combatants when the other side specifically targets civilians.

I think it makes sense to criticize both sides. If there isn't a lot of Palestine-bashing all around, it's because it's not a controversial topic. Everyone agrees, "those bastards!"... thread over. The bulk of coversation will be taken up by the harder topic--what standards should Israel apply to their side of the conflict? There is far more disagreement about this.

 

[gnome]

Which is why the IDF, who according to CapelDodger, "doesn't give a toss about dead Palestinians" often equips their soldiers with rubber bullets and other non-lethal options.

I've often wondered. I hope this policy continues.

I've notices that even when I disagree with you, what you say is well thought out and worth listening to. Thanks, you're a real asset to these forums, and one of the reasons I enjoy them.

Appreciated.

 

[Mycroft]

gnome, let's assume for the moment that a responsible solider fires back on the crowd after ample warning, and showing due restraint. Is it not the leader's (The leaders of Israel and Palastine in this case) responsability to never put their civilians and soldiers in that kind of a situation again? Ideally, in a hierarchial military, the leader is responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

In this conflict we have one side that alternatively pursues peace and war, depending the demands of the moment and the political pressures being applied both from within and without. The other side only pursues war, but spends a great deal of effort on its public relations to put as positive a spin on that war as is possible, while simultaneously hinting they might suddenly and completely change if only the right conditions were met, with those conditions never being openly named except (what we’re not supposed to take seriously anymore) older statements that demand the total annihilation of their enemy.

I agree with you totally that the very existence of that hypothetical situation is a failing of the leaders in this conflict, I just disagree that it’s a failing of all the leaders.

 

[Orwell]

In this conflict we have one side that alternatively pursues peace and war, depending the demands of the moment and the political pressures being applied both from within and without. The other side only pursues war, but spends a great deal of effort on its public relations to put as positive a spin on that war as is possible, while simultaneously hinting they might suddenly and completely change if only the right conditions were met, with those conditions never being openly named except (what we’re not supposed to take seriously anymore) older statements that demand the total annihilation of their enemy.

I agree with you totally that the very existence of that hypothetical situation is a failing of the leaders in this conflict, I just disagree that it’s a failing of all the leaders.

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict in a nutshell, brought to you by Mycroft, Pro-Israeli partisan hack.

 

[CapelDodger]

Really, is that what the fighting in Jenin showed?

It showed the IDF that such operations were not to be repeated. It turned out to be far more dangerous than they'd expected.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Mycroft, gnome,

I don't see what makes the blame for these situations either/or cases. Both parties can be considered negligent, in different ways, and to different degrees.