IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[Lisa Simpson]

Orwell, please stick to the topic at hand.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[Mycroft]

Mycroft, gnome,

I don't see what makes the blame for these situations either/or cases. Both parties can be considered negligent, in different ways, and to different degrees.

Yes, but in saying "in different ways" and "to different degrees" you craft a statement devoid of meaning. In a conflict involving some ten million people, there will always be a way you can assign some responsibility to everyone is some way.

But that doesn't help understanding. You're committing the fallacy of the middle ground if you just assume that leaders on both sides share an appreciable degree of responsibility. Understanding and looking for solutions comes from examining the issues and making judgements on what ways either party is responsible and to what degree so you can determing what needs to change.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Yes, but in saying "in different ways" and "to different degrees" you craft a statement devoid of meaning. In a conflict involving some ten million people, there will always be a way you can assign some responsibility to everyone is some way.

But that doesn't help understanding. You're committing the fallacy of the middle ground if you just assume that leaders on both sides share an appreciable degree of responsibility. Understanding and looking for solutions comes from examining the issues and making judgements on what ways either party is responsible and to what degree so you can determing what needs to change.

Excuse me, my statement is hardly devoid of meaning. It is however, a generality, and considering the complexities of the situation, ascribing ALL of the blame for ALL of the events in Israel/Palestine to a single party for the entire period since Israel's inception would be disengenuous.

If I am guilty of trying to find a middle ground, you are guilty of extremism. I would prefer to think that we can discuss this reasonably.

 

[webfusion]

What I have done

In similar circumstances that I've been involved in plenty of times, my unit held the designated intersections. It's not really so hard, we don't fire very many rounds, mostly up in the air or into the ground at their feet. An M-16 clip holds 28 rounds and we try not to waste 'em. Nobody tries to target the civilians, just for the heck of it. The barrages of rocks can get pretty intense, but the jeeps provide good cover. It's cat-and-mouse, and the rioters have learned to maintain a fair amount of respectful distance. If the mob gets too close, and threatening, and chucking firebombs, or shooting, we'll shoot back. The key to the situation is understanding the line between using our weapons in self-defense and unnecessary arbitrary firing. In virtually all cases, we hold the line and err on the side of caution. The civilians know that, and that's really why they go out in the streets like this --- understanding they have little to fear from the IDF patrols, since we aren't going to mow 'em down!
In a case like that photo I posted, we would call up Border Police reinforcements. Border Police are hard-cases, they rush right in there, grabbing whoever they can, and kicking 'em in their butts!

 

[ImaginalDisc]

webfusion, I've got to say, you sound like the most reasonable soldier I could hope to find in that sort of a situation. I hope everyone else there is as level headed as you are.

 

[Mycroft]

Excuse me, my statement is hardly devoid of meaning. It is however, a generality, and considering the complexities of the situation, ascribing ALL of the blame for ALL of the events in Israel/Palestine to a single party for the entire period since Israel's inception would be disengenuous.

I don't mean to offend, but I do believe a statement made only for the purpose of being between two positions you believe are "extreme" that is not supported by evidence but only by what you believe should be true is meaningless.

And to remind you, the hypothetical we're talking abuot is not ALL of the events in Israel/Palestine conflict, but merely the failures in leadership that made the situation at the crossroads happen.

If I am guilty of trying to find a middle ground, you are guilty of extremism. I would prefer to think that we can discuss this reasonably.

What I take issue with is "trying to find a middle ground." The ground one should look for is that which is supported by the evidence, not that which happens to be in the middle.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/middle-ground.html

 

[Mycroft]

If there isn't a lot of Palestine-bashing all around, it's because it's not a controversial topic. Everyone agrees, "those bastards!"... thread over.

Evidence to the contrary:

This one went on for 22 pages.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1027395#post1027395

 

[webfusion]

reasonable response

webfusion, I've got to say, you sound like the most reasonable soldier I could hope to find in that sort of a situation. I hope everyone else there is as level headed as you are. --- ImaginalDisc

Well, I tried to be, during some of the most difficult times in my life.
I was drafted in 1987, right before the 1st Intifada began (in December). As recruits, we were sent out without really knowing what we would be facing. A great many Palestinans got killed during that time, mainly because our training was designed to face opposing Armies, and the mobs we faced were so massive and violent, they unnerved us, so we opened fire directly at them as if they were combatants. In a sense, they were, in those circumstances, but gradually the terms of engagement became more well-defined from the command levels on down, and we began to operate against civilians with means other than lethal force, as much as possible and practical.

By the 2nd Intifada (Sept. 2000) the Palestinians were employing automatic weapons against us, with their militias operating within the crowds on the streets, using the rioting for cover to attack with Kalishnikovs.

These days, as we face constant barrages of short-range rockets, the level of the war has taken on the character of Lebanon, with artillery duels and IAF bombing runs being the standard method of engagement.

The idea of an IDF General being sued in a New York State courtroom for ordering artillery or an air sortie against clearly-defined targets during wartime combat operations (and authorized by the highest levels of the Israeli government), is preposterous. IMHO, as always.

 

[demon]

Let`s hear it for the IDF!
Those damn natives, just won`t behave themselves.
Why oh why won`t they be reasonable, roll over and take the **** from their oppressors and occupiers like civilized people would do.
I so feel for the IDF, I really do, can`t be easy stealing other peoples land, subjecting the whole population to a lock down, and taking pot shots at kids. Just as well they only get pulled up when they murder western journalists or they`d have an even harder time, poor guys!

 

[webfusion]

How long is that list of murdered 'Western Journalists'?

"Natives"? Who said the Palestinians are natives? They are mostly descendants of immigrant arrivals during the years between ww1 and ww11.

Subjecting the whole population to a "lock-down"? In case you hadn't been following the news, the Israelis are attempting to lift the restrictions, yet the Palestinians refuse to stop their terror and that is the quid-pro-quo.

"Stealing land"? Palestine was never an Arab Nation, it is disputed territory.
Open to negotiations, should the Palestinians ever get around to that, and lay down their weapons, as they must.

• Thursday morning, IDF troops killed three Palestinian militants in a raid in the West Bank city of Nablus, Israel Radio reported.
  The radio also reported the arrest of an Islamic Jihad militant behind a deadly suicide bombing that took place recently in Hadera.

Don't worry about the IDF, demon, they're doing their jobs fine.

 

[demon]

"Don't worry about the IDF, demon, they're doing their jobs fine."

Actually you are right, that emptying of a machine gun into a little schoolgirl was a fine example of their work.

 

[gnome]

"Don't worry about the IDF, demon, they're doing their jobs fine."

Actually you are right, that emptying of a machine gun into a little schoolgirl was a fine example of their work.

Demon... will you lay off? I'm not upset you criticize the IDF, but webfusion doesn't deserve what I can only describe as snarling-- especially after speaking with such candor and thoughfulness, I think he deserves the same respect from critics.

 

[Orwell]

Webfusion deserves all that snarling and more. He's a propagandist, not a honest debater. I wouldn't take what he says very seriously, he has an obvious agenda, and I'm sure he's willing to say just about anything to advance it. As far as I'm concerned, Webfusion has no credibility. If you think you can have a honest insightful civilised debate about the Palestinian-/Israeli conflict with these folks, forget about it. They won't accept something as simple as "both sides are guilty of a lot of crap". They won't even acknowledge the most basic facts about Israeli human rights abuses. They pretty much believe that all Israeli abuses are justified, and only Palestinians are to blame for them. It's "Israel right-or-wrong" with them, and be careful, if you annoy them enough by disagreeing with them, why they might even call you an anti-Semite!

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Webfusion deserves all that snarling and more. He's a propagandist, not a honest debater. I wouldn't take what he says very seriously, he has an obvious agenda, and I'm sure he's willing to say just about anything to advance it. As far as I'm concerned, Webfusion has no credibility. If you think you can have a honest insightful civilised debate about the Palestinian-/Israeli conflict with these folks, forget about it. They won't accept something as simple as "both sides are guilty of a lot of crap". They won't even acknowledge the most basic facts about Israeli human rights abuses. They pretty much believe that all Israeli abuses are justified, and only Palestinians are to blame for them. It's "Israel right-or-wrong" with them, and be careful, if you annoy them enough by disagreeing with them, why they might even call you an anti-Semite!

Though I hardly think webfusion *needs* me to rush to his defense, his posts here have been courageous, topical, and reasonable. Disagree with his opnions if you like, condem or support his actions if you like, but he is speaking of events from experiance in the IDF. I critisize many of the actions Isreal took in its foundation, and I hold the Israeli government as well as Palestinian terrorists, responsible for creating the conflict in the first place.

However, webfusion is not the leader of Israel or of Palestine. He is one person, and a soldier. He is not "these people". Blanket slander against any person or arbitrary group will solve nothing. Orwell, please stop.

 

[Orwell]

He is speaking of events from alleged experienced in the IDF. I have no reason to believe him.

I beg your pardon, but slander are words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another. I'm saying that Webfusion is a partisan hack. That's not slander: I've debated him (and others) on this very same subject before, and I can tell you that, in my humble opinion (and others too), he is a partisan hack i.e. he debates in bad faith.

Now, I'll drop off this thread and let you go at it. Maybe he'll act honest for once. Or maybe he won't and you will see what I mean... Who knows!

Good luck.

 

[Giz]

It showed the IDF that such operations were not to be repeated. It turned out to be far more dangerous than they'd expected.

So you agree that your assesment of past IDF tactics was incorrect. Your:

"They go into "situations of engagement" by firing rockets from gunships into crowded streets, or in tanks. Or dropping bombs on apartment blocks. The IDF doesn't give a toss about dead Palestinians. What it cares about is avoiding dead Israeli soldiers."

Was actually a prediction of changed future tactics? Did you mean to write:

"I think that in future they will go into "situations of engagement" by firing rockets from gunships into crowded streets, or in tanks. Or dropping bombs on apartment blocks. In future the IDF will not give a toss about dead Palestinians. I think that what it will care about is avoiding dead Israeli soldiers."

Perhaps Webfusion can clue us in on what training and tactical changes have actually occured since "jeningrad"?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

He is speaking of events from alleged experienced in the IDF. I have no reason to believe him.

I beg your pardon, but slander are words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another. I'm saying that Webfusion is a partisan hack. That's not slander: I've debated him (and others) on this very same subject, and I can tell you that his partisanship is a fact.

Hmm,

Webfusion deserves all that snarling and more. He's a propagandist, not a honest debater.

...As far as I'm concerned, Webfusion has no credibility.

...They pretty much believe that all Israeli abuses are justified, and only Palestinians are to blame for them.

...they might even call you an anti-Semite!

It seems to me that my pardon is not what you should be seeking. webfusion can say he's in the IDF, and I am inclined to believe him, because he has asked for no special treatment, and hasn't used that to justify insulting and inflamitory statements against anyone else. Using his claim to insult and make inflamatory remarks against him however, has been done.

 

[Orwell]

You think I'm harsh? You should see the kind of crap the "Israeli-right-or-wrong" crowd have inflicted on those who disagree with them...

Anyway, you've been warned... Have fun!

Cheerio.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I hold the Israeli government as well as Palestinian terrorists, responsible for creating the conflict in the first place.

The conflict began in ernest on May 15th 1948. That is the day the British Mandate over Palestine ended. On that day Jordanian, Egyptian, Saudi, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops invaded Palestine. Israel did not invade Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or Iraq.

Since then the hostilities have never ended. While the Israeli government is far from perfect - and which government is perfect - it is in my opinion that Palestinian terrorists, Nasser, Assad, the House of Saud and a whole host of other xenophobic islamists have expended alot more energy perpetuating this conflict than the government of Israel ever has.

It could all end tomorrow if Islamic fundamentalism was brought under control and Iran, Syria and the House of Saud stopped their well-documented and decades-old strategy of encouraging and inflaming hostilities and enabling the terror groups.

But hey, that is just my opinion.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

The conflict began in ernest on May 15th 1948. That is the day the British Mandate over Palestine ended. On that day Jordanian, Egyptian, Saudi, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops invaded Palestine. Israel did not invade Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or Iraq.

It could all end tomorrow if Islamic fundamentalism was brought under control and Iran, Syria and the House of Saud stopped their well-documented and decades-old strategy of encouraging and inflaming hostilities and enabling the terror groups.

But hey, that is just my opinion.

What right had the Brittish to hand over the lands and people of Palestine to foreign invaders? Israel invaded Palestine. Just as the United States invaded the United States, relocating tribe after tribe of native americans. Because of a story about a hereditary right to a land their remote ancestors left 3000 years ago, the Israelis took control over people who had done them no harm. It's an act as questionable as, say half a dozen Seminoles showing up on my doorstep and claiming soveriegnty over me.