Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Collin237]

I think this is more of a case of zealotry not understanding that their dogmatic approach turns people against them, than any evidence of them being hidden anti-trans astro-turfers.

There's no way that a very small zealous minority can "capture" the entire infrastructure of one of the world's most powerful countries.

 

[Meadmaker]

WTF planet are you from? Seriously, this is quite common in male gyms and showers.

I never noticed it, myself. But I think that might explain why the young guys insist on wearing towels all the time in the locker room.

ETA: And, I understand it is not about "having sex with" anyone in the shower or locker room, the way ST was talking about. You are talking about hitting on, "creeping on", flirting, or just generally sexualized behavior.

In forty years of going to gyms, I've never noticed any of it. If it's common in male showers, it's either only common in certain areas, known as gay hangouts, or I'm totally oblivious to it. That last possibility is not out of the question. I've been oblivious before.

 

[TomB]

My point is that the discussion of this demographic to the exclusion of other demographics leads to special pleading.

I can see that. But the reason I was addressing trans-women specifically was that 1) they are the topic of this thread, and 2) they are the demographic for whom some feel the solution is to send them to women's prisons. I can actually see where there don't fit into either, which does potential make them a unique situation. But I think that ideally every prisoner's situation should be taken into account when deciding how to house them. That's an ideal. It's not realistic, if for no other reason, expense and lawyers. But I think unrealistic ideals have values as something to try to get as close to as possible in the real world.

I don't think it's a good idea to put any males in a men's prison. But we put males of all kinds in there anyway, more or less out of necessity. And we put males from all kinds of vulnerable demographics in the same prisons with males of threatening demographics. Singling out transwomen for "they shouldn't be in women's prisons but they shouldn't be in men's prisons" is special pleading. And not fair to all the other males who could benefit from a similar humanitarian viewpoint.

First, I agree with you about prisons. You don't send someone to Hell with the expectation that they will come out a better person. (It's like hellfire and brimstone in religions: they don't make people more moral. Just afraid to act.)

And you are right that singling out transwomen is unfair. And if this were a conversation about prison reform, I would address other demographics as well. But each demographic can be talked about separately because the approach may not be the same for all demographics.

Let me be absolutely clear about one thing: I vehemently reject the "no empathy for criminals" argument. If you thought that might be something that's going on here, or could start up here soon, let me put that misconception to rest right now.

I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that you hold that attitude.

But a lot of people do. I've heard people complain when they see an inmates cell containing a television, library books or anything else that might help them pass the time. So I expect a bit of push back when I suggest that maybe prison should be less of a hellhole and that prisoners should not have to watch their back constantly or join a gang for fear of physical or sexual assault.

 

[Lithrael]

The BBC article, and some official England & Wales crime statistic pages I googled up, are dealing with these increases in terms of survey responses by victims. Are we proposing that the 80% increase is primarily due to more victims identifying transwomen perpetrators as female, rather than due to more victims reporting abuse by standard cis natal whatever you want to say, women? I note the article leads with a woman’s account of abuse by her mother.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The BBC article, and some official England & Wales crime statistic pages I googled up, are dealing with these increases in terms of survey responses by victims. Are we proposing that the 80% increase is primarily due to more victims identifying transwomen perpetrators as women, rather than due to more victims reporting abuse by standard cis natal whatever you want to say, women? I note the article leads with a woman’s account of abuse by her mother.

Unless emily cat has some evidence beyond this BBC article, this smear against trans people seems entirely rooted in animus and completely lacks substantiation.

The under reporting of sex abusers generally, and female sex offenders specifically, is a well known phenomena.

 

[Butter!]

delete dupe

 

[Ron Obvious]

If you identify as someone with two legs but only have one, you're still going to fall over when you stand up.

This is not complicated people.

And if you're a man who identifies as a woman you still can't have babies.

The Loretta scene in Life of Brian seems more prescient by the day, though I suspect the moral cowards at the BBC would probably omit it these days if they even showed it.

 

[Butter!]

I don't think it's fair to expect straight cis-men to just gladly assume the role of "the only inherently predatory gender/sex identity" without any questions or concerns.

You can disagree with that of course, but the idea that it's some shocking far outside the Overton Window idea is rather eyebrow raising to me.

Is that really what you think segregated bathrooms and change rooms do, though? Cast all males as villains?

I know a few men who wouldn't be thrilled about changing in front of women, either.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I honestly don't know how to tell the difference between valid and invalid lived conditions. Reality denial doesn't seem to be a sufficient criteria by your standards.

Continuing from this sentiment...

LondonJohn: Care to provide some links and answers to the follwing with respect to "valid lived experience" and what "the experts" are using as "accepted meaning" of the term "woman"?

Can you provide a link?

Because entered in the search bar returns several pages of things that are not that at all (like life span and living conditions). Putting it in quotes for a perfect match returns this thread and nothing else.

...

You keep saying that you're using the "generally accepted definition" but you are also unable to provide a non-tautological description, and you're unable to provide a link to any of the experts providing a non-tautological definition.

You seem to rely on an appeal to a hypothetical authority, without actually bothering to demonstrate that such an authority actually exists, or is in any way an authority.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Is that really what you think segregated bathrooms and change rooms do, though?

Absolutely. That's entirely the justification we are being given.

If I'm in a bathroom with a woman, I can't be trusted to not rape her.

What other possible reason has even been discussed?

We can't be expected to just not take that at least a little personally.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think what John is saying is that valid conditions should be treated affirmatively (e.g. hormones and surgery) but invalid conditions should be cured. It's a weird ad hoc dichotomy which you won't find in the medical literature.

I can't even find the phrase "valid lived condition" on the internet anywhere but this thread.

 

[Lithrael]

Our cops? I agree. But our courts? Absolutely. The question of cake-baking has been addressed at the US Supreme Court, as has the case of hiring transwomen, regardless of the specific occupation.

If there is a transgender rights ordinance, it doesn't matter what the cops do. It's about what the judge and/or jury does after the plaintiff brings a suit.

Oh, yeah, I’m with you there, I meant regarding the reporting of crime statistics etc, treatment of arrestees, the cop end of things. Courts as in the treatment of trans criminal defendants as opposed to trans civil plaintiffs.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not a doctor, but I assumed the diagnosis should precede the treatment decision, rather than the diagnosis following from the decision how to treat the condition.

It's not even that logical., It's treatment following a declaration of a feeling that is considered to be not a condition and doesn't require a diagnosis at all!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Trying to simultaneously run a men's cruising club and family friendly spa on the same premises..

Dude, are you genuinely not getting this or are you playing games?

They aren't TRYING to run a men's cruising club. They DON'T WANT it to be a men's cruising club. They don't have a legal means by which to prevent males from cruising on their premises! Seriously, how do you prevent people from flirting and similar?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It seems to me the idea that men are inherently predatory and women can only be safe if isolated from them is deeply baked into TERF opposition to trans rights.

There's a reason why TERFs are almost entirely focused on trans-women and could not care less about trans men. It's an ideology driven deeply by hatred of men.

OMG, no it's not! It's not driven by hatred at all! It's driven by eons of sexually aggressive male behavior!

Not all males are sexually aggressive. But the overwhelming majority of sexual aggressors (over 90%) are male. It's a male behavioral pattern that exists in EVERY cultural and every time period.

This MRA crap is just that - crap.

 

[Emily's Cat]

One feeds into the other. It's both.

It's neither.

 

[Collin237]

It's not even that logical., It's treatment following a declaration of a feeling that is considered to be not a condition and doesn't require a diagnosis at all!

That would be medical malpractice. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Boris Johnson allowed such a thing.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Dude, are you genuinely not getting this or are you playing games?

They aren't TRYING to run a men's cruising club. They DON'T WANT it to be a men's cruising club. They don't have a legal means by which to prevent males from cruising on their premises! Seriously, how do you prevent people from flirting and similar?

How do you know that? you seem awfully sure.

Running a gay bathhouse is a proven moneymaker in many communities. Some are very open about what they are, some play their cards closer to the chest.

I find the idea that a men's sauna could become a hookup hotspot without at least the tacit acceptance of the proprietor hard to believe.

 

[Aber]

There is nothing in that BBC article to support your claim that trans women are responsible for this boom in numbers, .

May be wrong BBC article

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

tl;dr
In jail for sexual offences:
Biological females 128
Transwomen 60 (out of a declared 125)

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes.

If I'm scared of a gay man's penis because it might rape me, I'm homophobic.

I've spend about 5 threads trying to figure out why that's different.

"Because men are evil because I'm a scared widdle woman and you'll never understand what that is like" is not an answer yet it's the only answer I've gotten.

Women's fear of men is not so magically unique and special OR justified as to make it so obvious and logical and that straight cis-men are the ones we have to protect everyone else from.

Women do not own the concept of being scared of "the other" enough to make it not problematic for them to hate an entire demographic, 99% of which will never so much as look twice at them.

Hey fellow females!

Joe has just declared that we're full of hatred and irrationality if we don't want to be naked around males. Males aren't a danger at all! We're just being hysterical.

So let's run with that - don't worry about protecting yourself while walking to your car in a dark garage while you're alone, it's completely ridiculous of you to worry that a stranger might grab you and violently rape you.

Similarly, if you're out at a club and a dude just won't leave you alone no matter how clear you make it that you're not interested, well, you're just being hateful if you want someone to watch your back when you leave the club out of concern that the creeper could be following you.

And young ladies, no worries. The guy down the street who's peeking in your window watching you undress? He's no harm. The men who put mirrors on their shoes so they can see up your skirt and get a panty-shot? Not a problem. The men who hide in the port-a-potties covered in feces so they can see your vulva when you pee - there's nothing at all wrong with that.

And if you dare to take note of the statistics for sexual assaults and how they differ by sex... well, now you're just straight up misandrist.

It's totally irrational and hysterical for females to acknowledge that even though most males don't commit rape, the overwhelming majority of rapists are male.

Yep. You're being irrational and hate-filled if you think you should have the right to protect yourself from strangers who are male, or to deny them access to areas where you are particularly vulnerable to assault.

You evil over-reacting misandrist feminazi you!