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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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d4m10n said:
I think what John is saying is that valid conditions should be treated affirmatively (e.g. hormones and surgery) but invalid conditions should be cured. It's a weird ad hoc dichotomy which you won't find in the medical literature.
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If I follow the 'logic', body integrity dysphoria (BID) will become a 'valid lived condition' as opposed to an 'invalid lived condition' when it is recognised by the psychiatric/medical community as not being 'aberrant'. Just as, if for any reason in the future some fundamentalists manage to get homosexuality classified as a disorder, homosexuality will become 'invalid'.

BID is now included in the ICD11 but was previously known as Body Identity Integrity Disorder. Note how similar this is to gender identity disorder being renamed gender dysphoria. Currently it is under the mental, behavioural and neurodevelopmental disorders chapter. So we are part way there (removing 'disorder' from the title). Transabled activists presumably just need to get it moved to another section to make it 'valid'.
 
d4m10n said:
Is it "hatred of men" to note that bepenised people may pose a unique risk to human females?
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Yes.

If I'm scared of a gay man's penis because it might rape me, I'm homophobic.

I've spend about 5 threads trying to figure out why that's different.

"Because men are evil because I'm a scared widdle woman and you'll never understand what that is like" is not an answer yet it's the only answer I've gotten.

Women's fear of men is not so magically unique and special OR justified as to make it so obvious and logical and that straight cis-men are the ones we have to protect everyone else from.

Women do not own the concept of being scared of "the other" enough to make it not problematic for them to hate an entire demographic, 99% of which will never so much as look twice at them.
 
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d4m10n said:
Is it "hatred of men" to note that bepenised people may pose a unique risk to human females?
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I trust all these family friendly spa patrons would be thrilled to have a lesbian cis-woman soliciting them for sex and drugs while out with their children.

Sexually aggressive behavior remains the most obvious problem, and it's entirely possible to address this directly without making sweeping generalizations about trans women or men.
 
Sherkeu said:
For the females:

If you had a "room share" choice (whether through your company, student living, retreat, or cruise ship, etc...), how would you rank your choice, knowing nothing else?
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1. Male gay, femme
2. Male gay, manly
3. Female, straight
5. Transwoman, straight
7. Transman (any persuasion)
4. Transwoman, lesbian
2. Female, lesbian
6. Male, straight

Because I don’t like being hit on or having any of my interactions mistaken for flirting. In fact by not splitting out straight and gay transmen you left out one of the ones I’d actually want to put in totally different places on the ranking.

Gay males get top choice because they’re the least likely to mistake me for competition.
 
Lithrael said:
1. Male gay, femme
2. Male gay, manly
3. Female, straight
5. Transwoman, straight
7. Transman (any persuasion)
4. Transwoman, lesbian
2. Female, lesbian
6. Male, straight
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Man the D&D Alignment Chart got weird in the later editions.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I don't see why trans people are to blame for ruining the "family friendly" atmosphere. The owners of the spa are letting it happen.
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You are conflating two different problems. The problem of gay cruising on the male side is different from the problem of trans people will male genitalia on the female side. Regardless of how the trans people with male genitalia behave, a lot of people do not want to have them naked in the presence of naked girls. And frankly, I think that’s pretty understandable. You can call that transphobic if you like, but I don’t think that’s actually a winning argument with the public at large.
 
Olmstead said:
I don't think so. It hinges on whether you consider the view that transwomen are men to be transphobic. Is it?
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On the same "completely meaningless purely semantic question of nothing but arbitrary categorization" level as everything else in this topic I suppose.

Again:

"I HAVE FIVE FINGERS!"
"NO I HAVE FOUR FINGERS AND A THUMB!"

is not an actual disagreement. Everyone gets that right?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yes.

If I'm scared of a gay man's penis because it might rape me, I'm homophobic.

I've spend about 5 threads trying to figure out why that's different.

"Because men are evil because I'm a scared widdle woman and you'll never understand what that is like" is not an answer yet it's the only answer I've gotten.

Women's fear of men is not so magically unique and special OR justified as to make it so obvious and logical and that straight cis-men are the ones we have to protect everyone else from.

Women do not own the concept of being scared of "the other" enough to make it not problematic for them.
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Ironically enough, the idea that men are inherently predatory probably plays a role into the permissiveness of male sexual aggression.

"Men are inherently dangeorus" is just "boys will be boys" allowed to run amok.

It's entirely possible and desirable to set the expectation that unwanted sexual aggression will not be tolerated, even from men.

Gay men aren't the problem in the men's spa. Sexually aggressive gay men are the problem.

That's the point. The permissiveness of this establishment for sexual aggression has made the spa unwelcoming to men, gay or straight, who want to use a spa without getting hit on or watching other people engage in public sex acts.

The idea that such debauchery is simply unavoidable is absurd.
 
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TomB said:
I didn't say they were. However this is a conversation that involves that one particular demographic. The fact that there are other demographics outside the scope of this conversation is not grounds for dismissing those concerns.

But as I said, the problems with prisons are a whole other topic.

ETA: I don't think it's a good idea to put trans-women in women's prison. But I also don't think it's a good idea to put them in men's prison. While it's easy to turn off empathy for a criminal, no one's punishment should be to place them in a dangerous living situation. The fact that being sent to prison deprives one not only of freedom, but also of safety indicates a problem in my mind.
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My point is that the discussion of this demographic to the exclusion of other demographics leads to special pleading.

I don't think it's a good idea to put any males in a men's prison. But we put males of all kinds in there anyway, more or less out of necessity. And we put males from all kinds of vulnerable demographics in the same prisons with males of threatening demographics. Singling out transwomen for "they shouldn't be in women's prisons but they shouldn't be in men's prisons" is special pleading. And not fair to all the other males who could benefit from a similar humanitarian viewpoint.

Let me be absolutely clear about one thing: I vehemently reject the "no empathy for criminals" argument. If you thought that might be something that's going on here, or could start up here soon, let me put that misconception to rest right now.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It seems to me the idea that men are inherently predatory and women can only be safe if isolated from them is deeply baked into TERF opposition to trans rights.
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It's also deeply baked into reality.

It's exaggerated, but basically correct. I would say "aggressive" instead of "predatory", and I would say "safe" is not just "free from physical assault".

And it isn't about hating men at all. I think women actually like those very traits, but not 100% of the time. They want to be free from those traits some times, just as there are times when as much as I love women, there are times when I would really prefer that none of them be around.
 
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Everybody who wants the "other" kept away from them uses their threat vector as their excuse.

Like I've said I've yet to meet a racist that didn't have that "Blacks make up X percent of the population yet commit Y percent of the violent crimes" stat memorized to constantly bring up as their justification.
 
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Butter! said:
This is totally a thing that can happen, and I think it's good to point out as a general phenomenon. But I do feel compelled to note that it isn't happening here with me :). I'm always going to default to being a live-and-let-live hippie.
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Thanks for your patience and candor. I agree with your thoughts on this. It’s often how it is when everyone is on the defensive.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yes.

If I'm scared of a gay man's penis because it might rape me, I'm homophobic.

I've spend about 5 threads trying to figure out why that's different.

"Because men are evil because I'm a scared widdle woman and you'll never understand what that is like" is not an answer yet it's the only answer I've gotten.

Women's fear of men is not so magically unique and special OR justified as to make it so obvious and logical and that straight cis-men are the ones we have to protect everyone else from.

Women do not own the concept of being scared of "the other" enough to make it not problematic for them.
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Men rape women way more often than gay men rape men. The reason for this is at least partially due to women's physical weakness, I would imagine. We're easy to catch, easy to overpower, etc. Also, there are way more straight men than gay men in the population.

I'm sorry, but I've read you make this point several times now, and I just cannot see a way to agree with it. It's actually mystifying to me that you think it's misandry to acknowledge the fact that lots of men peep and creep, and women have no way of knowing which are which, so many would rather change without any men around. Big deal! Not worth taking offense.
 
Meadmaker said:
It's also deeply baked into reality.

It's exaggerated, but basically correct.

And it isn't about hating men at all. I think women actually like those very traits, but not 100% of the time. They want to be free from those traits some times, just as there are times when as much as I love women, there are times when I would really prefer that none of them be around.
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There are a number of traits I like very much in men and women - as long as it's not the crazy ones.

Sometimes you just want a clean, well-lighted place that's free of the risk of the crazy ones.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It seems to me the idea that men are inherently predatory and women can only be safe if isolated from them is deeply baked into TERF opposition to trans rights.

There's a reason why TERFs are almost entirely focused on trans-women and could not care less about trans men. It's an ideology driven deeply by hatred of men.
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Are you arguing that females should have no rights/spaces/representation (etc.) based solely on their sex ?
 
Lithrael said:
Thanks for your patience and candor. I agree with your thoughts on this. It’s often how it is when everyone is on the defensive.
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Yay! Thanks :).

Yeah, I thought about this a little more last night (using your post as a jumping-off point), and I came to the conclusion that it shouldn't actually be so easy for people to "switch sides," not if their original core beliefs are genuine. It's a common claim, but I kind of think it's almost always a lie (unless the person is very young or new to a set of sociopolitical issues).
 
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Louden Wilde said:
Are you arguing that females should have no rights/spaces/representation (etc.) based solely on their sex ?
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I suspect the actual argument has been unstated (and perhaps unrecognized) so far, but goes something like this:

Females should have the rights/spaces/representation (etc.) that have evolved over time, and that feminists have fought for and are still fighting for... And transwomen should be able to piggy-back on these norms and efforts by self-ID alone.

After all, without a distinct norm in law and custom, transwomen have nothing to transition to. At that point, transwomanhood becomes just another expression of masculinity, alongside jocks, frat boys, hipsters, metrosexuals, and effeminate men. If you're not allowed in a women's shelter because you're wearing a popped collar and a backwards ball cap, why should you be allowed in a women's shelter because you're wearing a dress and makeup?
 
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