Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Emily's Cat]

ETA: I don't think it's a good idea to put trans-women in women's prison. But I also don't think it's a good idea to put them in men's prison. While it's easy to turn off empathy for a criminal, no one's punishment should be to place them in a dangerous living situation. The fact that being sent to prison deprives one not only of freedom, but also of safety indicates a problem in my mind.

I get what you're saying. I'm just not sure that it's less fair for transwomen than for other males.

 

[Ron Obvious]

Yeah but people with all four limbs that still "identify as amputees" have only popped up recently.

And yes that is a thing. It's not something I'm making up.

I have no idea how recent it is. I suspect it wasn't talked about much in the past.

I still see no real difference. In both cases, their brain mapping doesn't map to their real body anatomy, similarly I suspect to real amputees with phantom limbs.

Why we have to pretend transgenders are genuinely of the opposite sex but the BID people are not having a valid lived experience is completely beyond me.

 

[Emily's Cat]

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/09/...er-stonewall-disney-british-army-marie-curie/



Tories protecting trans rights?

Ideological capture

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you happen to have the underlying (reliable) data for this?

Sometimes, I think you're playing games. It was reported by the BBC, and it has been linked and referenced several times already.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55338745

Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 - an increase of 84%.

Now, whether you want to personally dismiss the BBC as "unreliable" is up to you. You seem to frequently dismiss information as "unreliable" when it contradicts your beliefs.

 

[Meadmaker]

Pregnancy has only been ridiculously dangerous since we stood up and narrowed our pelvic girdle. Most of our actual innate fears and various reflexive responses were laid down waaaay before that. Is ‘pregnancy can kill you’ really the type of fear that even CAN propagate as an innate (rather than learned) fear in an evolutionary setting?

I have wondered about how long behavioral evolution takes.

Specifically, I have wondered if wearing clothes has been going on long enough to have been influenced by evolution. I think our ancestors are believed to have been wearing clothes for about 100,000 years, which is more than 5,000 generations. Is that enough time that some aspects of clothing, or the lack of the same, to have evolved, in a very real sense?

I have said that the aversion to being naked around the opposite sex is instinctive. In saying that, I'm basically saying that "modesty" is more than just a cultural phenomenon. Obviously, it is influenced by culture, but is it more than just purely cultural?

 

[Lithrael]

As a USAian it’s honestly hard to imagine cops or courts actually hamstrung by what some lgbt org was complaining about. Like, I can barely imagine it outside of ‘subversive compliance’ or whatever they call it when you do something ridiculously literally to make it look stupid or to cause obstruction. Our cops won’t even stop losing suspects in janitor’s closets for days after we file multiple lawsuits about it.

ETA: interesting questions, Meadmaker! I’m curious too.

 

[Elaedith]

Yeah but people with all four limbs that still "identify as amputees" have only popped up recently.

And yes that is a thing. It's not something I'm making up.

I'm not sure it's true that the phenomenon of perceiving that a body part is not meant to be there is recent. I think it quite plausible (although not yet confirmed with sufficient evidence) that this type of sensation could occur due to a neurological problem such as failure of a limb to 'map' onto the somatosensory cortex or some other brain region or pathway involved in body awareness and sensory perception. It would then be in effect the reverse of a 'phantom limb', where there is no limb present but the area of the somatosensory cortex that normally receives input from the missing limb responds to sensory input from surrounding regions.

What is recent is casting transability as an 'identity' rather than a neurological disorder, along with a movement for self-ID as disabled (transability activism), and insistence that 'transabled people are disabled' etc. This has obvious parallels with the transition from a medical model (gender dysphoria) to an ideological identity model (transgender identity) with both having underlying postmodern ideas of denying and transcending material reality (possibly transhumanism).

 

[Emily's Cat]

For the females:

If you had a "room share" choice (whether through your company, student living, retreat, or cruise ship, etc...), how would you rank your choice, knowing nothing else?

1. Male gay, femme
2. Male gay, manly
2. Female, lesbian
3. Female, straight
4. Transwoman, lesbian
5. Transwoman, straight
6. Male, straight
7. Transman (any persuasion)

I would take any female, regardless of sexual orientation first.
Then I would take gay males and transmen without any real preference.
Then a straight transwoman (assuming this means that they are attracted to males)
Then others.

There may be some variations that are reasonable. For example, if they were men that I personally knew very well and trusted, they might rank higher than anyone else regardless of sex or orientation or gender presentation.

Think of it honestly before you read my answer!....

It is just me who would rank any female, either of the gay males, or a transman over choosing the trans women? Why is that?
(being honest...and I'm sure not the only one to think this!)

I followed your request and didn't read ahead... so no, you're clearly not the only one!

My initial guess is that I would predict that I may have some additional burden of having to affirm them and be cautious of my language so as not to trigger some dysphoria. With the others, I can relax, have fun, and be more myself.

I know humans can be crap no matter what, and many trans women are obviously quite lovely people -so it's all a gamble- but I'm basing it on the 'best compatibility' for me...not really intense fear of some criminal offense. Just what is more likely to be a good result in a living situation.

I think "which one of these people would be triggered by":
-me being on my period or with cramps
-speaking of a miscarriage or birth
-wearing a bikini or swimsuit they cannot
-having other attributes they do not have yet

Only the trans women fit the bill. Females don't care, men don't care, and transmen are glad to be rid of it (or at least it is a shared experience).

It just seems like something I'd rather avoid than risk offense.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If you identify as someone with two legs but only have one, you're still going to fall over when you stand up.

This is not complicated people.

 

[Meadmaker]

As a USAian it’s honestly hard to imagine cops or courts actually hamstrung by what some lgbt org was complaining about. Like, I can barely imagine it outside of ‘subversive compliance’ or whatever they call it when you do something ridiculously literally to make it look stupid or to cause obstruction. Our cops won’t even stop losing suspects in janitor’s closets for days after we file multiple lawsuits about it.

Our cops? I agree. But our courts? Absolutely. The question of cake-baking has been addressed at the US Supreme Court, as has the case of hiring transwomen, regardless of the specific occupation.

If there is a transgender rights ordinance, it doesn't matter what the cops do. It's about what the judge and/or jury does after the plaintiff brings a suit.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You seem to have a lot of faith that they are what they seem to be. As an outsider, I'm saying look at what they've actually done and try to reevaluate them objectively.

I think this is more of a case of zealotry not understanding that their dogmatic approach turns people against them, than any evidence of them being hidden anti-trans astro-turfers.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sometimes, I think you're playing games. It was reported by the BBC, and it has been linked and referenced several times already.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55338745


Now, whether you want to personally dismiss the BBC as "unreliable" is up to you. You seem to frequently dismiss information as "unreliable" when it contradicts your beliefs.

There is nothing in that BBC article to support your claim that trans women are responsible for this boom in numbers, and the article itself posits that the increase in numbers is merely a reflection on a willingness of victims to come forward and be believed should they report their abuse at the hands of women.

The government said it would "not allow there to be any safe space for sex offenders to operate - either online or offline, male or female - and will do all we can to help survivors of abuse".

"To this end, we will soon publish a first of its kind strategy to tackle all forms of child sexual abuse, including that perpetrated by female offenders," a spokesperson said.

 

[Collin237]

The best theory of BIID is that it happens in the brain's 'mapping system' of nerves that go out to our various body parts. It has been long known in history.

But yeah, a small minority must make them insignificant? How small til we ignore a condition?

Like all the 10%'ers used to be, eh?

I said nothing about insignificance. IIRC the question was how is it different?

People with BIID have an incomplete map, and it's a legitimate -- even if unsupported -- hypothesis that therapy could complete it.

Trans people, however, already have a complete map, just not the one that applies to their body. So it's not at all legitimate to try to destabilize that map, as if by some miracle the other map would appear. Surgery is the only option.

ETA: I said that the form perceived by people with BIID, i.e., a body with a limb neatly severed, doesn't occur naturally. Sorry if that sounded Aristotelian.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Am I bigoted to say I won't be going to any place myself, or with my underage child when this is allowed legally? I enjoy a good Korean scrub and soak but not with the anxiety that the place is not secure from males.
Sorry. Just my biology.

If you think this is just one example, you'd be wrong.

It's the behavioral difference that seem to be missing some people. It's the creeping on women that's a problem.

Females don't go to korean spas or locker rooms to try to hook-up with other women. Even lesbians don't do that! All of us have enough experience of being creeped on by males whose attentions we don't want, that we wouldn't do that to another woman. It's a massive transgression of acceptable behavior in female safe spaces.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sounds like these Korean spas are at least tacitly permitting these places to become hook-up joints. If there is a culture of patrons using these places as hookup clubs, that's on the management that allows it to happen.

MALES use it as a place to hook up. MALES. Not females. Females do NOT use these are hook-up joints.

I don't see why trans people are to blame for ruining the "family friendly" atmosphere. The owners of the spa are letting it happen.

MALES cruising female space so they can try to hook-up with females in a female safe space is 100% MALES ruining the family friendly space. It's the behavior of the transwomen that is the problem.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

MALES use it as a place to hook up. MALES. Not females. Females do NOT use these are hook-up joints.


MALES cruising female space so they can try to hook-up with females in a female safe space is 100% MALES ruining the family friendly space. It's the behavior of the transwomen that is the problem.

Let's not pretend cis-women never engage in sexually predatory behavior, including behavior directed towards other women or children.

Kick out the pervs. No need to blanket discriminate against trans people.

What would you expect to be done if a cis-woman was being sexually aggressive in the women's spa?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems to me there's a lot these places could do if they really cared enough to do it.

You say yourself that many men already avoid these places because of the reputation as a cruising hotspot. Now a similar problem is happening on the women's side, to a much lesser extent.

Seems the root issue of these spas becoming sexual activity hotspots is permissiveness of management and and unwillingness to confront the problem. An obvious solution is to have staff attendants supervising the spa areas.

Spas and gyms exist all over the world, and the majority of them operate for their intended purpose and not as orgy hotspots.
Is this only a problem to you that that its not only impacting the male side? You say yourself that these places are basically avoided by men not wanting to be propositioned for sex, so it sounds like men experiencing a much more severe deprivation of these services.

WTF planet are you from? Seriously, this is quite common in male gyms and showers.

The end result is very likely going to be that, because the law is on the side of the transwomen... females and families are just going to stop going.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There's no reason why the spas need to exclude gay people, and you're right it would be illegal and immoral to do so. They should police behavior, not classes of people.

having attendants or just employees walking through the spa area periodically and ejecting people who are violating the rules seems like an easy step. I'm guessing nearly all these people would not enjoy being caught in the midst of sex and embarrassingly trespassed from the business. Communicate clearly to patrons that sexual activity is not tolerated on the grounds and make it clear that these areas will be monitored closely and complaints taken seriously. I'm sure word would get around that this isn't a suitable place for cruising after a few confrontations.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that these businesses are not quite so helpless as you portray them, and that they saw that allowing the male side to become a cruising spot secured them steady business. I don't see how this is a big problem that such a decision ended up biting them in the ass in the long run.


It may be too late for these businesses who have allowed themselves to acquire an unsavory reputation as places with high sexual aggression. That doesn't mean it was unavoidable, nor is it suggest that excluding trans people is the only remedy.

None of that is going to stop biological males from creeping on females. Even if they aren't engaging in sex on the premises, they're still going to be creeping.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

WTF planet are you from? Seriously, this is quite common in male gyms and showers.

The end result is very likely going to be that, because the law is on the side of the transwomen... females and families are just going to stop going.

I've never encountered men having sex inside the saunas or changing rooms of any of the multiple gyms I've been a member of for years. This kind of behavior would almost certainly result in loss of membership in any of these businesses, and would draw the ire of other gym members who were witnessing it. Men don't like finding used condoms in public spaces either, ya know.

Men like using saunas for the same reason women do, it's nice to sit in the steam.

The closest thing to a pervert in the men's room I've ever experienced was some weirdo taking video of himself flexing in the locker area where people are nude. I reported this guy to the front desk.

 

[JoeMorgue]

50% of the population literally not being trusted to be alone with the other half is not a center that can hold.