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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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d4m10n said:
I've linked the wiki page for feminity several times upthread, but I'll quote it here:



There is also a section on clothing and appearance, but I'm sure you've already noticed those differences.
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Thanks. That's where I'm going to push back on this idea. The traits of humility and gentleness and sensitivity are all assumed traits that have repeatedly been used to deny women participation in the fullness of society. It's the social expectation that women are humble (and thus subservient to the desires of men) that is a barrier. It's the presumption of sensitivity and gentleness that have justified excluding women from political and executive roles because "they're just not suited to making hard decisions".
 
d4m10n said:
Do people in your culture not generally have discernably different expectations of males and females?

In terms of style and dress, at the very least?
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Sure, but I'm not sure how general it is for people to expect transwomen to act feminine rather than masculine. If we go by trans activists' claims that trans people are super discriminated against and marginalized for their trans status, then we conclude that transwomen are generally expected to perform masculinity. So by your definition transwomen are men.
 
caveman1917 said:
If we go by trans activists' claims that trans people are super discriminated against and marginalized for their trans status, then we conclude that transwomen are generally expected to perform masculinity.
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If the claim is that most cis people are actively discriminating against and otherwise marginalizing trans people, I'm not about to concede the claim even for the sake of argument.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
I'm not surprised. There are a LOT of facial characteristics that are sexually dimorphic. Males have heavier brow ridges, that extend further out in front of their eyes. Females have rounder eye sockets. There are differences in cheekbones, jaw shape, and several others.
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Well yes I know that, my surprise was at the idiots getting mad about it. It's a neural network, a function approximator, operating on facial features, not a piece of magic that's supposed to read one's gender identity.
 
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d4m10n said:
If the claim is that most cis people are actively discriminating against and otherwise marginalizing trans people, I'm not about to concede the claim even for the sake of argument.
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Technically the claim would be that most people who expect people to perform the gender role associated with their sex also expect trans people to perform the gender role associated with their sex.
 
caveman1917 said:
Well yes I know that, my surprise was at the idiots getting mad about it. It's a neural network, a function approximator, operating on facial features, not a piece of magic that's supposed to read one's gender identity.
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I think it's due to the ideological requirement that gender identity must replace biological sex and the cult-like belief systems built around this.
 
TomB said:
Well, yeah. The problem isn't merely that type A prisoner is Dangerous to Type B who is dangerous to Type C. The overarching problem with prisons is that they are dangerous. If you could figure out how to solve that problem, you might be able to consider co-ed prisons and simplify the whole thing.

Alas, reality.

But anyway, the concerns of both the women and trans-women regarding incarceration have validity. And effort should be put into addressing both.

There aren't any easy answers.
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The easy answer would be setting aside one wing in a few prisons dotted round the country to house trans people.
 
caveman1917 said:
Seriously?

:dl:
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Yes, seriously. It's a wee while since I read the article so I doubt if I could put my hand on it, but the software developers were almost grovelling in their embarrassment that their product had turned out to be transphobic and couldn't identify trans individuals as their chosen sex gender.
 
Elaedith said:
I think it's due to the ideological requirement that gender identity must replace biological sex and the cult-like belief systems built around this.
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When function approximators are "transphobic" we are well through the looking glass for sure.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Where does that leave people who actually care about Scotland being it's own independent country (I think that's what SNP was supposed to be about, but I could be wrong)? All the rest of this is a serious diversion from that core objective.
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It leaves us pretty damn furious, that's where. There's a huge uproar going on at the moment. We have a leader who is a complete disaster. Promoting her as his successor has turned out to be Salmond's biggest error.

She is prioritising the woke agenda and in particular trans self-ID above everything else, even as she sidelines independence to the long grass (covid is just the most recent excuse). She has no more intention of delivering independence for Scotland than my cat.

She is also the spider at the centre of the web that framed Salmond on trumped-up charges of sexual assault.

The ISP is new, untried, untested, inexperienced and has almost no voter recognition. They mean well but we'll be well screwed as a country long before they can bootstrap themselves into a position of being a serious contender in elections.

Which is all a bit tangential but it shows the sort of mess promoting something as ludicrous as the concept that TWAW gets you into in politics.
 
Emily's Cat said:
The traits of humility and gentleness and sensitivity are all assumed traits that have repeatedly been used to deny women participation in the fullness of society.
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We apparently agree that certain virtues have been extolled to young women and girls much more than the same traits have been extolled to their brothers and fathers. Where we disagree is that you think I'm somehow trying to justify this practice rather than taking note of it as historical fact.

Emily's Cat said:
It's the social expectation that women are humble (and thus subservient to the desires of men) that is a barrier.
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I cannot grant the premise that humility (a sorely underrated virtue, IMO) is the same thing as subservience or submission.

Emily's Cat said:
It's the presumption of sensitivity and gentleness that have justified excluding women from political and executive roles because "they're just not suited to making hard decisions".
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I don't know where you live, but my government could have used a good deal more sensitivity and gentleness in the previous four years; it might have averted a good deal of irreversible harm.
 
Collin237 said:
Is this under the Johnson administration?
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Yes. The police and the courts and the media have swallowed the trans mantra and they are the ones driving this. The Conservative party's realisation that kowtowing to the wokies isn't as clever a wheeze as they thought it would be is relatively recent, and there are people in the party who still want to toe the woke line, and they have had other things to think about recently, so this situation has developed and has not been addressed.
 
cullennz said:
The easy answer would be setting aside one wing in a few prisons dotted round the country to house trans people.
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No, you can't do that, that would be invalidating the lived experience. It is essential that transwomen are locked up with women because otherwise the trans activists will call you names.
 
Rolfe said:
Yes, seriously. It's a wee while since I read the article so I doubt if I could put my hand on it, but the software developers were almost grovelling in their embarrassment that their product had turned out to be transphobic and couldn't identify trans individuals as their chosen sex gender.
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I wonder what these people are up to. It is conceivable that a function approximator might determine gender from an MRI scan, which would be a significant step toward resolving the great debate. The claim that this could be done with facial recognition could be a transphobic attempt to derail the science.

Note: In relation to Matthew Best wondering why I call myself a Neoliberal, doing so gives me the "privilege" to point out, as I just did, when the two sides of a debate might not be which ones they seem to be.
 
d4m10n said:
Any data on point?
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No. It's not my claim either, it's the point where your definition would switch from considering transwomen as men to considering transwomen as women. If you want to use that definition to argue that transwomen are women you have to show that most people who expect people to perform the gender role associated with their sex (let's call them "genderists" - those who participate in the expectation of gender roles, the group whose beliefs your definition is based on) are also supportive of transwomens' gender expression. In other words, they make an exception for them whilst still expecting a gender role to be performed, just the other one.

And even if this was shown to be the case for the current culture wherever you're from, it also highlights a flaw in your definition, in that in any culture non-accepting to trans people transwomen would be men. It would also contradict with the claims of trans activists that trans people are a discriminated against and marginalized minority. Either society is generally supportive of trans people or it is generally discriminatory against them, you can't have it both ways.

ETA: Basically your definition boils down to: a person is a woman if some specific group of people thinks so. So it obviously depends on what that specific group of people thinks or not.
 
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d4m10n said:
Do people in your culture not generally have discernably different expectations of males and females?

In terms of style and dress, at the very least?
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Yes, and none of them amount to a hill of beans in this problem space.

Normalizing gender stereotypes and using them as a legal basis for segregation seems like all kinds of a bad idea.

Can you give a specific example of how you envision this working? Like, a specific expectation that you have about males and females, and how you would use it to segregate them?
 
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