Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[d4m10n]

The "generally expected" part and the "self-presentation" part.

Do people in your culture not generally have discernably different expectations of males and females?

In terms of style and dress, at the very least?

 

[caveman1917]

It also says sex is "something that is assigned at birth", as if our relevant gene expression profiles and subsequent reproductive development would have differed if the physician had written something different in the box.

It's truly amazing how the human species managed to procreate, up to the point where birth certificates were used, if none of their children before that had a sex.

 

[TomB]

My personal perspective is that people should use the restrooms and locker rooms that other people will generally assume they belong in.

Contrary to a lot of the arguments periodically made here, humans are quite identifiably sexually dimorphic. That dimorphism extends well beyond genitalia. For 99.5% of people, you can look at a tall, muscular, narrow-hipped, flat-chested female and still correctly identify them as female. Females and males have different hips, different gaits, different brow ridges, different jaw and chin shapes, different depositions of fat, etc. There are a great many elements that are part of the constellation of secondary sex characteristics. Most people don't fit the norm on any single element... but vanishingly few are outside the bounds of their sex on more than half of them.

That said... if someone effectively passes as their identified gender well enough that they don't get challenged, they get to go in.

That view doesn't hold for all situations though. It doesn't hold for prisons. I don't care how passing a transwoman is - if there is a penis attached, they do NOT get placed in the female ward.

And if a person was born male, regardless of how passing they are, they don't get counted as a female for the purposes of representation in politics or business, nor do their crimes get counted as female crimes.

In a sense, that's the way it has been in the past.

But then there are the proposed bathroom laws that would make what you describe a crime. And if someone knew that that person was a transwoman (regardless of how well she passed) they could use that law to harass her just because they don't like her. So she might be forced to use the men's restroom, where she doesn't fit in visibly in order to avoid legal consequences because some jerk now has the power of the law behind them.

Of course, the other side wants a law that is the opposite of that, which effectively turns restrooms into unisex facilities.

I'm not impressed with the idea that laws will resolve the issue, currently.

 

[Collin237]

Well, yeah. The problem isn't merely that type A prisoner is Dangerous to Type B who is dangerous to Type C. The overarching problem with prisons is that they are dangerous. If you could figure out how to solve that problem, you might be able to consider co-ed prisons and simplify the whole thing.

Alas, reality.

But anyway, the concerns of both the women and trans-women regarding incarceration have validity. And effort should be put into addressing both.

There aren't any easy answers.

A big problem with prisons, which I have no idea at all what to do about, is the open toilets in the cells. I've always considered that almost literally a fate worse than death.

 

[Matthew Best]

Do people in your culture not generally have discernably different expectations of males and females?

In terms of style and dress, at the very least?

Seani declares that she is a woman, but presents as a man.

What is the general expectation of her style and dress?

 

[caveman1917]

My thought as well. I think every "lived condition" is valid.

Indeed. It's why I always find it interesting when people feel the need to bring up "transwomen are valid" or something like that. If every lived condition is valid, then it adds nothing to the conversation by pointing it out. Which means the people bringing it up don't hold that every lived condition is valid, they consider some people invalid.

 

[TomB]

A big problem with prisons, which I have no idea at all what to do about, is the open toilets in the cells. I've always considered that almost literally a fate worse than death.

LOL! Agreed.

I wonder if that could be incorporated into scared straight programs?

 

[caveman1917]

As far as I can tell, democracy mostly involves the majority being more or less happy with policy, even if that leaves a minority that's unhappy with it.

That's not very far then. It is observably the opposite, policy is made to make a minority happy even if that leaves the majority unhappy.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I seriously don't see where I said anything about stereotypes or sexism. You seem to be assuming that all aspects of femininity^WP are offensively bad, when in fact several of them are obvious virtues which everyone should cultivate. Other aspects of femininity are morally neutral things like fashion choices which vary based on culture, time, and place.

Feel free to spin to a different thread... but I'm really curious what aspects of femininity you view as being virtues?

 

[Emily's Cat]

This actually does make sense. As for the last two paragraphs, that's the advantage of making gender certificates legally binding; if they're found guilty of a crime, their gender can be revoked.

That would be a sensible approach, revoking their certificate... but that's not what's actually happening, unfortunately. For example, in the UK they've reported an 80%+ increase in child molestations committed by "women". That's very misleading, because what's actually happened is that child molestations committed by self-identifying transwomen are being recorded as having been committed by females. Even though a fair number of those transwomen don't have gender recognition certificates, and their legal sex is still male.

This is why this thread continues to go on, and we continue to have discussions. It's not quite as simple as who gets to pee where. There is a real conflict between rights based on sex and rights based on gender identity, and those conflicts get seriously exacerbated when gender identity becomes self-identification.

 

[caveman1917]

Note that the developers of facial recognition software have already had to grovel to the trans-activists because their product is "transphobic". The software correctly recognises the person's real sex in an extremely high percentage of cases. The TRAs are upset, of course.

Seriously?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I saw an absolutely bat-crap crazy paper linked to on Twitter which was indeed arguing for "transabled" people to be treated in all ways as if they were genuinely disabled. It seemed to be serious, although who can really tell these days. It made as much sense as the papers claiming that transgender people are in some way deserving of being treated in every possible way as if they were the opposite sex.

I wouldn't be that surprised if this is the next big thing we're supposed to swallow. The SNP NEC is doing its level best on that one at the moment, insisting that since there's no official register of disabled people then it must all be done by self-identification. (There are of course such things as the blue badge scheme, lists of medical diagnoses that are considered to be disabling, and a decent definition of what "disabled" actually means, but Fiona Robertson and Rhiannon Spear scorn all that.)

Honestly, it starts sounding like some strange dystopian bit of twilight Zone. It absolutely baffles me that SNP is going self-id for ethnicity and disability.

Rachel Dolezal should apply for a position though.

Where does that leave people who actually care about Scotland being it's own independent country (I think that's what SNP was supposed to be about, but I could be wrong)? All the rest of this is a serious diversion from that core objective.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Adult human female.

Not trying to give you a hard time... but how is an adult human female expected to behave?

 

[d4m10n]

Seani declares that she is a woman, but presents as a man.



What is the general expectation of her style and dress?

I doubt that anyone outside of the very wokest circles are likely to see Seani as a woman. It would be interesting to ask what expectations those circles have (other than pronouns) but you'd probably get kicked out for transgressing one of their norms.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, yeah. The problem isn't merely that type A prisoner is Dangerous to Type B who is dangerous to Type C. The overarching problem with prisons is that they are dangerous. If you could figure out how to solve that problem, you might be able to consider co-ed prisons and simplify the whole thing.

Alas, reality.

But anyway, the concerns of both the women and trans-women regarding incarceration have validity. And effort should be put into addressing both.

There aren't any easy answers.

Women's prisons are significantly less dangerous than men's prisons. Not a vague sort of "statistically significant but not meaningful" sort of thing, but MASSIVELY less violent and dangerous.

Much as I might wish it otherwise, as long as testosterone is the hormone that drives sex-differentiation... I think there's going to need to be some areas of life that segregate females from males. It's unfortunate, and it's not very nice, but testosterone genuinely produces higher levels of aggression.

 

[Collin237]

For example, in the UK they've reported an 80%+ increase in child molestations committed by "women". That's very misleading, because what's actually happened is that child molestations committed by self-identifying transwomen are being recorded as having been committed by females. Even though a fair number of those transwomen don't have gender recognition certificates, and their legal sex is still male.

Is this under the Johnson administration?

 

[d4m10n]

Not trying to give you a hard time... but how is an adult human female expected to behave?

I've linked the wiki page for feminity several times upthread, but I'll quote it here:

Traits traditionally cited as feminine include gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity, though traits associated with femininity vary across societies and individuals, and are influenced by a variety of social and cultural factors.

There is also a section on clothing and appearance, but I'm sure you've already noticed those differences.

 

[Sherkeu]

I saw an absolutely bat-crap crazy paper linked to on Twitter which was indeed arguing for "transabled" people to be treated in all ways as if they were genuinely disabled. It seemed to be serious, although who can really tell these days. It made as much sense as the papers claiming that transgender people are in some way deserving of being treated in every possible way as if they were the opposite sex.

I wouldn't be that surprised if this is the next big thing we're supposed to swallow. The SNP NEC is doing its level best on that one at the moment, insisting that since there's no official register of disabled people then it must all be done by self-identification. (There are of course such things as the blue badge scheme, lists of medical diagnoses that are considered to be disabling, and a decent definition of what "disabled" actually means, but Fiona Robertson and Rhiannon Spear scorn all that.)

Well, when we run out of people with neuro-atypical conditions we might finally get 'round to us left-handers who suffer micro-aggressions on a daily basis by those handed-normative supremacists who keep giving us pens to the wrong side. There are jobs we can't do, machines and tools that are dangerous for us to operate, and sports we cannot play. Our lifespans are viciously cut down by those righty designers.
Rise up lefties!

To be serious though, it is interesting to see the parallels and think "What if writing as a lefty was = to opposite gender expression but not other things that are lateralized in the brain?"

Am I really a true lefty if I am also right-eyed and use my right arm for heavy lifting, scissors. and tennis (but not ping-pong), among many other things a right-hander would do?

If you only focus on the writing, then "yes!" I am a lefty 100%. But if you consider all the other things, I am not.

Of course this doenst cause lefties much distress. We adapt and carry on. But in terms of the way the internal sense of what 'feels' right and natural to us it compares. After all, biology doesn't know which aberrations cause deep distress in society vs others which are rather benign. (In the era where it was a sign of being 'sinister' or a witch I suppose there were issues.)

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seriously?

I'm not surprised. There are a LOT of facial characteristics that are sexually dimorphic. Males have heavier brow ridges, that extend further out in front of their eyes. Females have rounder eye sockets. There are differences in cheekbones, jaw shape, and several others.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is this under the Johnson administration?

Uhh... not really sure. You'd have to ask one of our local Ukers. Aber and Rolfe come to mind, but I think I'm forgetting one or two.