Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Emily's Cat]

The real question is what fitness standard they'll be expected to meet.

Lol, I hadn't even made it that far. I hadn't made it beyond thinking that they're going to need to broaden the size selection for uniforms and shoes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Reason will prevail, like in Idaho where Republicans can require insufficiently feminine girls to have their genitals examined.



Forcing girls to submit to genital examinations, anything to keep them safe!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstaceyennis/2020/03/30/idaho-governor-signs-the-nations-most-anti-transgender-measures-into-law/?sh=5731bf007a12

Transphobes are perverts.

I'm going to counter that and say that a disproportionate number of perverts are males.

That seems to hold true regardless of which gender they identify as.

 

[theprestige]

I like to think that as human beings, men and women are more the same than they are different, and that perverts are equally represented between the genders. The impression that most perverts are men is probably more a combination of selection bias in reporting and confirmation bias in reading, than it is a real variance between the genders.

 

[Meadmaker]

I like to think that as human beings, men and women are more the same than they are different, and that perverts are equally represented between the genders. The impression that most perverts are men is probably more a combination of selection bias in reporting and confirmation bias in reading, than it is a real variance between the genders.

I also suspect it is the rather undefined nature of the word "pervert".

These days, it's hardly ever used for anything except non-consensual activity. Homosexuality and sadomasochism used to be "perverted". Now one of them is normal and one of them is "kinky", which is generally viewed somewhat positively now.

"Pervert" is generally reserved for voyeurism, exhibitionism (without consent), and any variety of nonconsensual physical contact. And females are almost never cited for any of those offenses.

And pedophiles of course. Everyone agrees they're perverts.


ETA: I started to describe what I meant, but I decided I couldn't even describe it without sounding like a pervert.

 

[theprestige]

Whenever I see a story about a schoolteacher abusing their position of power and trust to molest a minor child, it always seems to be a woman female schoolteacher.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I like to think that as human beings, men and women are more the same than they are different, and that perverts are equally represented between the genders. The impression that most perverts are men is probably more a combination of selection bias in reporting and confirmation bias in reading, than it is a real variance between the genders.

Might depend on how you define pervert.

Voyeurism, flashing, sneaking into locker rooms / bathrooms / dormitories to get a look at naked females, stalking, child molestation, sexual assault, and paraphilias are all materially more common among males than among females. Some of them by orders of magnitude.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Whenever I see a story about a schoolteacher abusing their position of power and trust to molest a minor child, it always seems to be a woman female schoolteacher.

They get more media attention because they're unusual. They're also often reported differently - even your framing is different than I suspect it would be if it were a male teacher and a minor child. If the perpetrator is female, it's "abusing position", whereas if the perpetrator is male, it's "statutory rape" or "predatory".

That kind of consensual but highly inequitable situation occurs among both sexes. I don't know if it happens more with one than the other though. Personally, I think it should be treated the same regardless of the sex of the perpetrator. An adult female teacher getting it on with a minor student is just as much of a predator engaging in statutory rape as a male would be.

 

[Sherkeu]

I like to think that as human beings, men and women are more the same than they are different, and that perverts are equally represented between the genders. The impression that most perverts are men is probably more a combination of selection bias in reporting and confirmation bias in reading, than it is a real variance between the genders.

This sort of thing would likely deserve its own thread but it is sooooooo not true.

You can find the fringe at the end of the distribution but for the most part, all mammals have males as aggressors and females as receptive (or not, and are unwilling but get it anyway). Humans are no different- just more civilized now.

Males are definitely more sexually perverted in their thinking. Much more visually oriented and aggressive. Higher libido. It's not even something that people really argue against, is it? It also doesn't need to be 'wrong' when at a healthy level and not violating women. I may know a female more perverted than you are (and I do!), but that doenst make the genders equal in that regard. It is very lopsided.

Even looking at transgenders, you get a big difference in the arousal of the MtF vs FtM when considering their transitions.

 

[Ziggurat]

Males are definitely more sexually perverted in their thinking.

I think that’s true, sexual perversion is predominately male. But on the flip side, there are other pathologies that males are less prone to than females. On the extreme end, Munchausen by proxy is overwhelmingly female.

 

[Sherkeu]

I think that’s true, sexual perversion is predominately male. But on the flip side, there are other pathologies that males are less prone to than females. On the extreme end, Munchausen by proxy is overwhelmingly female.

So true. I thought of mentioning that a few weeks ago when it seemed that males here were thinking the women posters were labeling all males as predators. The predominance of certain crimes doesn't broad brush individuals of an entire gender (or biological sex if you will).
It is what it is.

 

[Aber]

Conversely, what should the clinic tell a 22-year-old who comes back to them accusing them of having "mis-sold" him/her transitioning medication and therapy when he/she was 15?

As you should be aware, this has gone through the courts.

 

[LondonJohn]

As you should be aware, this has gone through the courts.

Yes, I am aware. I was illustrating how, from a clinic's ex ante position for any given patient, it could potentially be held liable at some point in the future whether it does intervene or it doesn't intervene. I was hoping that was clear.

 

[Butter!]

I think that’s true, sexual perversion is predominately male. But on the flip side, there are other pathologies that males are less prone to than females. On the extreme end, Munchausen by proxy is overwhelmingly female.

No one said "females are better and saner than males," they said females are less prone to the specific perversions of peeping and flashing nonconsenting people. Which they are. They are horrible in countless other ways. Why does this always need to be said NOT ALL MEN/WOMEN/WHATEVER.

 

[Ziggurat]

No one said "females are better and saner than males," they said females are less prone to the specific perversions of peeping and flashing nonconsenting people. Which they are. They are horrible in countless other ways.

That matches what I said.

Why does this always need to be said NOT ALL MEN/WOMEN/WHATEVER.

I wrote what I wrote because it was relevant to previous posts. In a sense, I was reconciling Sherkeu's statement that men are more prone to sexual perversion with theprestige's statement that "men and women are more the same than they are different". Dysfunction all around, just variations in manifestation.

But is it really a wonder why a lot of people don't feel comfortable with singling out one group for attack?

 

[Aber]

Yes, I am aware. I was illustrating how, from a clinic's ex ante position for any given patient, it could potentially be held liable at some point in the future whether it does intervene or it doesn't intervene. I was hoping that was clear.

A fine hypothetical.

Except that the High Court judgement showed that the clinic have not been so balanced in the past.

 

[Butter!]

That matches what I said.



I wrote what I wrote because it was relevant to previous posts. In a sense, I was reconciling Sherkeu's statement that men are more prone to sexual perversion with theprestige's statement that "men and women are more the same than they are different". Dysfunction all around, just variations in manifestation.

But is it really a wonder why a lot of people don't feel comfortable with singling out one group for attack?

I just think that's largely become one of the major problems with the whole thread. For example, someone says, "Self-ID laws could allow perverts with ill intentions into private spaces" and others hear, "Trans people are likely to be perverts!" Someone says, "Getting rid of sex-segregated spaces could put women at risk from malicious male actors," and someone else hears, "Men are bad and dangerous and just the presence of their penises hurts poor little women."

"Assuming a broad brush" might be a good term for it, maybe? Sorry to nip your head off. I've got a weird-feeling spot in my throat and I've been stressing all morning that it's corona.

 

[theprestige]

"I'm female, and I think there's a legitimate biological justification for me to be afraid of males in some situations. No offense."

"I'm male, and... it's kinda true. None taken."

"I'm not male, so this doesn't apply to me."

"How are you not male in this context?"

"Shut up."

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, I am aware. I was illustrating how, from a clinic's ex ante position for any given patient, it could potentially be held liable at some point in the future whether it does intervene or it doesn't intervene. I was hoping that was clear.

I don't think it's as equivalent as you've presented it.

If the DO intervene, then they do actual harm to their patient, in error. At the very least, it's medical malpractice. And it has life-long impacts to the patient who has been irreversible harmed by a lackadaisical approach to treatment.

If the DO NOT intervene, your fall back is that the child might commit suicide? In what way is the gender clinic directly liable for that suicide? Suicidality is a mental health issue, that should be addressed by an appropriate clinician.

Ascribing liability for the suicide to the gender clinic for NOT giving the child transition assistance when it is not likely to be appropriate is kind of silly. You could just as easily argue that if a parent denies their child extra cake for desert, and that child then commits suicide, the parents are liable for the suicide because they didn't give the kid extra cake. It creates a situation in which all people must always give any child anything they want for fear of them committing suicide. It's absurd.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But is it really a wonder why a lot of people don't feel comfortable with singling out one group for attack?

It's not a wonder at all. What is a wonder to me is the volume of people on this site who feel justified if they're the ones doing the attacking because it is upheld by their beliefs and/or feelings.

Not you - this is a reference to some of the cross-topic intersection with the CHUD thread.

 

[Emily's Cat]

"I'm female, and I think there's a legitimate biological justification for me to be afraid of males in some situations. No offense."

"I'm male, and... it's kinda true. None taken."

"I'm not male, so this doesn't apply to me."

"How are you not male in this context?"

"Shut up."

I do so enjoy your summaries of the discussion sometimes