Democracy is in trouble....

[mgidm86]

I'll say it right now, if his post doesn't win TLA next round, the voting will have clearly been rigged.

It's really me! Not sure how I can prove it Hmm I started a fishing thread awhile ago... I was actually nominated for a language award pretty much the day I left a little over a year ago. I didn't really follow that stuff so not sure what became of it. Was surprised though.

I've felt this way (rabidly anti-Trump) for quite awhile now but can't remember what stage I was at when I left here a year ago. I don't wanna look either!

This experience, this election and watching the people around me and around the world...I think it's fascinating. I also think it's very scary, but fascinating in its magnitude. It's remarkable how the mind can believe in something in the face of overwhelming evidence against it.

I mean this isn't normal politics where people can actually make a decent argument for being on either side (haha), this is a whole new level of WTF.

I've never seen anything like it.

It seems to me that the Trump supporters in my life are lost now. They can't possibly argue in favor of Trump - they never really did anyways. They argued against Biden. I think they want to rationalize everything that happened but are out of ideas. These people are angry, confused, and not really sure what to think. They're in shock.

I'm talking about normal conservatives like my parents, not the whacked out section of his base. They don't want to be wrong, but they see that they are (or do they) and are not sure what to do. They have nobody. They have no party.

Maybe. Hell I dunno!

I got in a discussion with my Mom's friend. He asked "How can you prove that Trump incited the riot when he never said x, y or z?"

After going over some of the events that lead to it I suddenly realized that there was an easier way to deal with it.

I asked him, "What if Obama or Hillary did all of this? Would you be asking these questions?"

Silence. End of discussion. That is the measuring stick I used to sort out all of this...what if your perceived enemy did the same thing Trump has done? If you can answer that honestly then it is all very clear.

And my parents know Trump is a bad guy. They are just that afraid of the Democrats.

And that, in my experience is what it's all about. Fear of the liberals. Hey I don't like some things the Dems want to do either! But a lot of their fears are based on lies and exaggerations.

The violent riots in Portland, the unfortunate wording of "De-fund The Police". FOX jumped all over that. The message is "Crazy Liberals Want To Get Rid Of The Police! Look At The Riots!!! That's what they want!"

Yes, every person I have talked to says exactly that. So does everyone in the media - Trump supporters interviewed on the street, pundits, Hannity. It's all about the evil Dems. NOTHING MORE.

It isn't about Trump or any one person either. The racism, the hatred, the trolling of the libs, all the reasons you see out there are all based on fear.

You all know that, but I'm just saying fear is not just part of the equation, it is the prime motivator.

But how afraid must they be to let a guy lie and try to steal an election? How do you shut off the stupid? Are they that afraid to admit they were wrong?

Okay that's enough for now!

 

[mgidm86]

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but thanks for posting all that when you really didn't have to and probably would have rather been fishing. (must have been a bad weather day!)

I remember your story about your mom as my dad had been scammed in a different way and it dawned on me that he was just as susceptible to that sort of scam. It was heartbreaking and I hope your family is recovering. If they can learn something from the experience, that's a silver lining, I suppose.

Glad to see you back. I hope you find more time to join in, but if you don't that's good, too.

Take care.

Hey Doc! Ya I'd rather be fishing! Thank you for the kind words! I remember you commenting in that thread.

My Mom did get scammed, maybe that's where I left off here. It's off topic but briefly: they have recovered. They lost at least $350,000. Ya, a frickin big one. Most of their retirement savings. Might be a world record, crap. It was an 11 month long scam. If only she'd told me sooner.

They were able to save, then sell the house. It was close though. The cabinet business barely stayed open and has now been sold to one of the employees. My folks are living in their fifth-wheel trailer until the new house is built in Oregon. Nice trailer though!

So they made it. It was very scary and my StepDad found himself in the parking lot of the Golden Gate Bridge one day when it all began. He had a delivery in SF and said he made a wrong turn.

A man saw him crying outside his car and asked if he needed help. My stepDad said he wanted to call his pastor, and he ended up driving to Gilroy to talk to him with my Mom. I changed the combos to his gun safes, with his permission, and we just somehow got through it. They're marriage almost ended.

I tear up just typing this. Geez I can't believe we made it through that. What a scary time.

My Mom is reading Flim Flam, better late than never. I'm teaching her the importance of evidence based thinking. I had to have some kind of outlet during all this election crap. So I feel like I'm doing some good I guess.

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome back.

 

[mgidm86]

I sumbolically kill the fatted calf for this returned Prodigal.

Good to see familiar faces...er I mean avatars!

 

[jimbob]

Hey Doc! Ya I'd rather be fishing! Thank you for the kind words! I remember you commenting in that thread.

My Mom did get scammed, maybe that's where I left off here. It's off topic but briefly: they have recovered. They lost at least $350,000. Ya, a frickin big one. Most of their retirement savings. Might be a world record, crap. It was an 11 month long scam. If only she'd told me sooner.

They were able to save, then sell the house. It was close though. The cabinet business barely stayed open and has now been sold to one of the employees. My folks are living in their fifth-wheel trailer until the new house is built in Oregon. Nice trailer though!

So they made it. It was very scary and my StepDad found himself in the parking lot of the Golden Gate Bridge one day when it all began. He had a delivery in SF and said he made a wrong turn.

A man saw him crying outside his car and asked if he needed help. My stepDad said he wanted to call his pastor, and he ended up driving to Gilroy to talk to him with my Mom. I changed the combos to his gun safes, with his permission, and we just somehow got through it. They're marriage almost ended.

I tear up just typing this. Geez I can't believe we made it through that. What a scary time.

My Mom is reading Flim Flam, better late than never. I'm teaching her the importance of evidence based thinking. I had to have some kind of outlet during all this election crap. So I feel like I'm doing some good I guess.

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome back.

Oh that's heavy. Hope she can retrieve at least some of it.

 

[abaddon]

I'll tell you how my post above aged...TERRIBLY!!!

I haven't posted in probably a year or more. I have followed along for much of that time though, more-so recently. My last posts were not very nice and I haven't looked at my notifications following that.

My views have changed tremendously and I have been thinking that at some point I should come back here and say so. Give credit where it is due.

I'll keep it short for now because I'm not prepared for anything more today. I'm only responding because I have not seen myself quoted in a long time, so I figured what the heck, let's do this now.

Short version:
I hate Trump like I've never hated anyone in my life. I now see the Republican fear-mongering for what it is. I guess it took someone as bad as Trump for me to finally see it. And you guys helped as well.

The ISFers, many of whom I argued with, ignored and "hated", were right all along about this guy. I was wrong to ever defend him in any way.

I repeat, I was so wrong. He IS a racist. He IS deeply mentally disturbed. He should under no circumstances be President of this country.

I never supported Trump (that can be argued by people here and I'm fine with that), I just hated the libs that bad, as my above quote alludes to. That's all the Republicans have.

For all the Hillary hating I did here, I would vote for her over Trump any time.

That quote above is what ALL of the Trump supporters I know use as their main, possibly only, reason that they give for still supporting Trump. The libs are worse!

So now I'm in the position where I'm one of very few Trump haters in my family. The rest think I'm crazy now.

My sister said in an email recently, "Biden lies and is incompetent. He said 120 million people died of Covid!"

Seriously, that's all you got? She's worried about Biden stuttering, after Donald just tried to take away our right to vote? Her response, silence. Oh and she's sick of hearing about it all and covers her ears. I'll take that as a sign of knowing she's wrong, at least deep down somewhere.

I say it again - you guys were right about this clown all along. I still can't even believe how right you were and how blind I was.

You deserve credit for helping me see it.

But changing my views was difficult and took a long time. Scary part is that for people who know nothing about skepticism and bias, I have no idea what could change their minds.

And knowing that the people I love think this way has been a real struggle for me. I mean it is one of the biggest sources of stress I have right now. I felt like I had to do something.....

So I chose my Mom as a "student". Rather than telling her how bad Trump is I have been teaching her basic critical thinking. She is really into it, and has just bought Flim Flam. I tried to recommend a book that wasn't too text-bookie and more easy to read for her to get her feet wet.

My Mom also got scammed really bad last year, so hopefully she'll learn some things.

I figured I'd have more luck teaching her how to think than telling her what to think. And she's the only person in my family willing to listen to me. She is now challenging her friends and it's pretty cool to see.

She is seeing the light, but STILL has reservations in saying that Biden is the better choice, even after the capitol riot! "We'll see what happens" Uh....what?

But okay, I feel I've made a lot of progress so I accept that answer for now. Sigh.

Anyways, I've been wanting to post this here for awhile, but I do NOT want to start posting here every day. It's one reason I hesitated in posting this at all. I don't want to get sucked into this time-pit of a forum Seriously, as I've lurked here for the past year, every time I think I have something I need to say, someone else says it so I don't have to.

I have so much more I want to say, but that will be for another thread.

On Trump supporters:

One thing I will mention is that a lot of you guys are overthinking (poor word choice maybe) the reasons why people still support this guy. In my experience, it is very simple:

It doesn't even have to make sense:

- "Look at the riots in Portland! Libs want that! They're violent!"
- "They want our guns"
- "Biden has dementia and says stuff wrong!"
- "They want to take away my rights!"

That's it! Nothing more, and they certainly have nothing positive to say about Trump.

My Dad asked me one day. "Let me ask you, what is so great about Biden?"

My answer, "He isn't Trump, that's how bad Trump is!"

My Dad watches FOX, so he didn't know that Trump threatened to sue CNN for posting a poll showing Trump losing, or any of the gaffes he makes. He doesn't know about ANYthing because he watches FOX.

It's that simple. FOX almost won Trump the election. FOX can make Trump look competent and Presidential. Scary stuff.

I have not asked his opinion since election day. I'm both afraid to know, and hoping that he will see the light over time.

Trump voters are afraid of the evil libs. Every Trump voter I have talked to says the same thing and nothing else. Every article I read, every comment here...there is nothing but fear.

Sorry for the rambling post. I wrote this pretty fast and don't feel I articulated myself as well as I'd like, but it's a start.

Is this the answer you expected?

I have a lot more that I'd like to say someday.

Took a lot of bottle to post that.

Kudos.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now I am found
Was blind, but now I see.

 

[Mader Levap]

Since you just changed, any advice about how to reach them?

It is easy to dismiss them as stupid or loony. I should know, I do that often, though it is more out of laziness than sincere thought they are literally mentally deficient. In all seriousness I am sure it is only very small minority of them that are truly basket cases.

But for the rest... there are questions, why they believe what they believe and how to convince them they are mistaken.

This is only chance to end it all more or less peacefully.

 

[Pixel42]

Eight years Obama was President, and he didn't do any of the 'crazy lib' things they're now convinced Biden (by international standards a boring moderate conservative) will do. How do you reason with such people?

 

[Abooga]

Very interesting read mgidm86. I´m Spanish but I have some relatives in the US and they are all (afaik) Trump supporters. I haven´t spoken to them for a few years but I often wonder why they think as they do. I blame it on the way people live in (dis)information bubbles and are constantly bombarded from the same biased sources.

Trump was indeed horrible but let´s not forget that if he won it was (I think) in part due to a failure from the Democratic party, being too removed from the "common man", and promoting ideologies that didn´t resonate with too many people, and (this is perhaps only my perception*) due to corruption (legally corrupt perhaps, with all that lobbying dirty business) I remember someone here saying that Trump won because people thought the system was sick and Trump was like a chemoterapy, like a venom you take, knowing it is poisonous but hoping that it will purge your cancer.

I think remembering these things is useful at this time.

*it has been my perception that corruption is both the cause of most of society´s problems and more widespread than most people are aware of. But this is perhaps because I live in Spain and have had some first hand experience with it. Perhaps it is not that bad elsewhere, it´s hard to know.

 

[Ziggurat]

Very interesting read mgidm86. I´m Spanish but I have some relatives in the US and they are all (afaik) Trump supporters. I haven´t spoken to them for a few years but I often wonder why they think as they do. I blame it on the way people live in (dis)information bubbles and are constantly bombarded from the same biased sources.

Don't assume you are immune. If you live anywhere in Europe, you likely live in an information bubble regarding Trump supporters, or even people who might not like Trump but oppose Democrats more.

Trump was indeed horrible but let´s not forget that if he won it was (I think) in part due to a failure from the Democratic party, being too removed from the "common man", and promoting ideologies that didn´t resonate with too many people,

Some of those ideologies don't just not resonate, they are actively hostile to much of the middle and working class.

 

[No Other]

Eight years Obama was President, and he didn't do any of the 'crazy lib' things they're now convinced Biden (by international standards a boring moderate conservative) will do. How do you reason with such people?

Not sure how "crazy lib" is defined but there were plenty of Obama mistakes that ultimately led to Hillary's defeat in 2016.

1. Arab Spring was mishandled. We backed the Syrian Rebels plus we had our *** handed to us in Libya.
2. Taxes soared under Obama.
3. Highest rate of deportations... it is still the highest.
4. Did not fill judicial nominations with any urgency and that allowed Trump to stack the courts.
5. Recessions always occur but the recovery of the 2008 was the slowest since WWII.
6. Fast and Furious was a national disgrace.
7. The national debt went from $10T to $20T.

Worst of All:

Obama made drone strikes a policy, 540 drone strikes in 8 years. Trump continued this policy in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia (none of these countries have threatened the USA)... let's see if Biden will stop the attacks. History says "no" but let's give Biden a chance.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

none of these things were what Republicans claimed he was doing, i.e. taking away guns, replacing Christianity with Islam, putting critics in camps.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Hey Doc! Ya I'd rather be fishing! Thank you for the kind words! I remember you commenting in that thread.

My Mom did get scammed, maybe that's where I left off here. It's off topic but briefly: they have recovered. They lost at least $350,000. Ya, a frickin big one. Most of their retirement savings. Might be a world record, crap. It was an 11 month long scam. If only she'd told me sooner.

They were able to save, then sell the house. It was close though. The cabinet business barely stayed open and has now been sold to one of the employees. My folks are living in their fifth-wheel trailer until the new house is built in Oregon. Nice trailer though!

So they made it. It was very scary and my StepDad found himself in the parking lot of the Golden Gate Bridge one day when it all began. He had a delivery in SF and said he made a wrong turn.

A man saw him crying outside his car and asked if he needed help. My stepDad said he wanted to call his pastor, and he ended up driving to Gilroy to talk to him with my Mom. I changed the combos to his gun safes, with his permission, and we just somehow got through it. They're marriage almost ended.

I tear up just typing this. Geez I can't believe we made it through that. What a scary time.

My Mom is reading Flim Flam, better late than never. I'm teaching her the importance of evidence based thinking. I had to have some kind of outlet during all this election crap. So I feel like I'm doing some good I guess.

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome back.

Not to continue the derail or try to be a one-upper, but my dad lost more over a much longer time period and ruined his marriage. He died thinking he was right and everyone else was wrong. So, I'm glad you were able to help your stepdad and your mom. A nice fifth wheel is a better place than some who have lost so much, but still probably not where they would want to be.

Welcome back or just swing by to catch up every now and again. I think you were a bit frustrated when you left, but these are frustrating times. And I don't have a good enough memory to hold grudges.

Take care.

 

[Ziggurat]

none of these things were what Republicans claimed he was doing, i.e. taking away guns, replacing Christianity with Islam, putting critics in camps.

#7 (massively increase national debt) is exactly what Republicans claimed he would do.

And it's not like Democrats didn't claim Trump would do stuff he never did. I haven't forgotten claims that he would start a war with Iran, for example.

 

[Abooga]

Don't assume you are immune. If you live anywhere in Europe, you likely live in an information bubble regarding Trump supporters, or even people who might not like Trump but oppose Democrats more.
[...].

Yes, I know... but some people are specially cosy in their bubble. I´m not, and I actively try to look elsewhere. But it´s not easy...

 

[Abooga]

Also, regarding the OP, democracy is in trouble from the moment that someone can claim that the voting system was rigged, and that claim doesn´t get laughed at in a similar way as "the earth is flat" would. The voting system should be so transparent and foolproof that those claims would never be taken seriously by anyone. Electronic voting is not such as system, so democracy is... not in trouble, I´d say finished, the day electronic voting is widely used.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

#7 (massively increase national debt) is exactly what Republicans claimed he would do.

And it's not like Democrats didn't claim Trump would do stuff he never did. I haven't forgotten claims that he would start a war with Iran, for example.

you mean what Bush jr. did?
What Republicans supported?

 

[Ziggurat]

Also, regarding the OP, democracy is in trouble from the moment that someone can claim that the voting system was rigged, and that claim doesn´t get laughed at in a similar way as "the earth is flat" would. The voting system should be so transparent and foolproof that those claims would never be taken seriously by anyone. Electronic voting is not such as system, so democracy is... not in trouble, I´d say finished, the day electronic voting is widely used.

I agree. But I'm worried Democrats won't take this problem seriously. Their guy won, there isn't proof of widespread fraud, so that's likely good enough for them.

Except it isn't. The system isn't sufficiently transparent or sufficiently secure. There are systematic problems, and they need fixing. And yes, that includes getting rid of electronic voting. All votes should be paper. Electronic tabulation of votes (ie, machine readers of paper ballots) is fine, since that can be double checked by hand, but purely computer votes should be off the table across the board. But that's only the start. There are a whole bunch of problems with the way even paper ballot voting was and is handled that really need addressing. Unfortunately that probably won't happen. The winners rarely feel incentive to reform an election process they won, even if it's for the good of the nation.

 

[Ziggurat]

you mean what Bush jr. did?
What Republicans supported?

Oh, I'm well aware of Republican politician's hypocrisy regarding budgets, though Obama's debt increase really blew past W's debt increases. Nevertheless, the fact remains that Republicans did say Obama would explode the debt, and that's exactly what he did. You claimed they were wrong about that, but they were not. And this response doesn't constitute a retraction of a false claim or even a defense of that claim, but merely an attempt at deflection.

 

[trustbutverify]

I agree. But I'm worried Democrats won't take this problem seriously. Their guy won, there isn't proof of widespread fraud, so that's likely good enough for them.

Proof? How about any indication whatsoever of any fraud, beyond the trace elements that would accompany any election in the hundreds of millions? Where is a scrap of anything resembling actual evidence of foul play, beyond the inescapable background noise?

This disinformation campaign conducted by Trump and the GOP is nothing short of felonious. The entire party should be sharing a cell with Trump and his gang.