Democracy is in trouble....

[Ziggurat]

Proof? How about any indication whatsoever of any fraud, beyond the trace elements that would accompany any election in the hundreds of millions? Where is a scrap of anything resembling actual evidence of foul play, beyond the inescapable background noise?

This disinformation campaign conducted by Trump and the GOP is nothing short of felonious. The entire party should be sharing a cell with Trump and his gang.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for rule 12

The system is insecure. People don't have faith in it. You can keep trying to blame whomever you want to for that, but blame won't fix it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to match original post

The system is insecure. People don't have faith in it. You can keep trying to blame whomever you want to for that, but blame won't fix it.

what makes you think that?

Countless studies have shown that in all but the narrowest of elections, manipulations are too small to have a decisive effect.
The system could be more secure, but it is clearly secure enough under the current rule to provide reproducible outcomes - the recounts have shown that.

No. If people don't have faith in the system, it's because either because they have been systematically disenfranchised or because their leaders have repeatedly told them that fraud is rampant when it is not.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Oh goodie. Biden's been President for less time then it takes to make a baked potato in the oven and the Trumpers, who have been hiding in the shadows for weeks, are already starting to come up for to complain about how Biden hasn't fixed everything yet.

I can't wait for them to suddenly realize there's a plague and huge deficient and start freaking out about it.

Dishonest, morally corrupt, pathetic nonsense.

 

[Pixel42]

I agree. But I'm worried Democrats won't take this problem seriously. Their guy won, there isn't proof of widespread fraud, so that's likely good enough for them.

Except it isn't. The system isn't sufficiently transparent or sufficiently secure. There are systematic problems, and they need fixing. And yes, that includes getting rid of electronic voting. All votes should be paper. Electronic tabulation of votes (ie, machine readers of paper ballots) is fine, since that can be double checked by hand, but purely computer votes should be off the table across the board. But that's only the start. There are a whole bunch of problems with the way even paper ballot voting was and is handled that really need addressing. Unfortunately that probably won't happen. The winners rarely feel incentive to reform an election process they won, even if it's for the good of the nation.

What about gerrymandering, voter suppression and the biased Electoral College system? Those need to be addressed too, right?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Oh goodie. Biden's been President for less time then it takes to make a baked potato in the oven and the Trumpers, who have been hiding in the shadows for weeks, are already starting to come up for to complain about how Biden hasn't fixed everything yet.

...

He hasn't?

That makes him just as bad as Trump!

 

[Bob001]

I agree. But I'm worried Democrats won't take this problem seriously. Their guy won, there isn't proof of widespread fraud, so that's likely good enough for them.

Except it isn't. The system isn't sufficiently transparent or sufficiently secure. There are systematic problems, and they need fixing. And yes, that includes getting rid of electronic voting. All votes should be paper. Electronic tabulation of votes (ie, machine readers of paper ballots) is fine, since that can be double checked by hand, but purely computer votes should be off the table across the board. But that's only the start. There are a whole bunch of problems with the way even paper ballot voting was and is handled that really need addressing. Unfortunately that probably won't happen. The winners rarely feel incentive to reform an election process they won, even if it's for the good of the nation.

Where is there any evidence that any election fraud occurred in 2020? Republican officials have affirmed that there was no fraud. Atty Gen Barr says there was no fraud. The Trump-appointed head of election security says there was no fraud (and got fired for it). Trump lawyers have gone to court 60+ times and offered zero evidence of fraud. When does this "there must have been fraud even if we can't find it!" silliness end?

And according to this, roughly 90 percent of votes cast in 2020 were on paper ballots, far more than in recent previous elections.

According to the highly respected Verified Voting website, in 2006 less than half the nation’s votes (47.7 percent) were cast in jurisdictions using mostly hand-marked paper ballots. In 2020 it was 70 percent. Another 18.1 percent were cast on ballot-marking devices used to mark paper ballots. Thus, this year, nearly 9 out of every 10 votes cast in the U.S. were marked on paper. Virtually all were counted with digital scanners, leaving the preserved original ballots intact for Trump’s bitterly contested recounts.

https://truthout.org/articles/paper...defending-the-integrity-of-the-2020-election/

The real election fraud is when Repubs cancel registrations of people likely to vote against them, or close polling stations in neighborhoods they think won't support them, or make it harder to register in the first place, or when a President claims mailed ballots and ballots cast in big cities in swing states shouldn't count. Five states conduct their elections entirely by mail, without any hint of fraud or serious error. That's the direction we should move everywhere. And many states provide automatic voter registration as part of getting a driver's license or conducting other official business. That should be universal, too.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Oh goodie. Biden's been President for less time then it takes to make a baked potato in the oven and the Trumpers, who have been hiding in the shadows for weeks, are already starting to come up for to complain about how Biden hasn't fixed everything yet.

I can't wait for them to suddenly realize there's a plague and huge deficient and start freaking out about it.

Dishonest, morally corrupt, pathetic nonsense.

I've been wondering about that.

Will the MAGA heads suddenly care that 4,000+ people are dying every day in this country now that it's Biden's problem?

I think their covid denialism probably goes deeper than just Trump loyalty.

Or perhaps i'm giving them too much credit. Perhaps they will simultaneously blame Biden for the deaths while insisting that the pandemic is wildly exaggerated or an outright hoax.

if I had to bet, I think they'll probably attack Biden for the ongoing covid economic slump, while not mentioning the deaths much. That allows them to blame the government for shutdowns without examining the true dangers of the virus.

 

[No Other]

none of these things were what Republicans claimed he was doing, i.e. taking away guns, replacing Christianity with Islam, putting critics in camps.

Republicans were never mentioned... 'crazy lib' is what Pixel42 said.

 

[johnny karate]

Not sure how "crazy lib" is defined but there were plenty of Obama mistakes that ultimately led to Hillary's defeat in 2016.

1. Arab Spring was mishandled. We backed the Syrian Rebels plus we had our *** handed to us in Libya.
2. Taxes soared under Obama.
3. Highest rate of deportations... it is still the highest.
4. Did not fill judicial nominations with any urgency and that allowed Trump to stack the courts.
5. Recessions always occur but the recovery of the 2008 was the slowest since WWII.
6. Fast and Furious was a national disgrace.
7. The national debt went from $10T to $20T.

Worst of All:

Obama made drone strikes a policy, 540 drone strikes in 8 years. Trump continued this policy in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia (none of these countries have threatened the USA)... let's see if Biden will stop the attacks. History says "no" but let's give Biden a chance.

Now do Trump.

Here, let me get you started:

400,000 Americans dead from a pandemic he let spiral out of control.

Millions out of work because of a pandemic he let spiral out of control.

Violent coup at the U.S. Capitol that he incited.

But yeah, Obama really bungled the Arab Spring.

 

[Ziggurat]

what makes you think that?

Countless studies have shown that in all but the narrowest of elections, manipulations are too small to have a decisive effect.

The security of a system is not judged on what has happened, but what can happen.

The system isn't secure. There are too few mechanisms in place to actually detect and prevent fraud. That is true even if no fraud has occurred to date. Our elections are much more insecure than those of most other developed countries.

No. If people don't have faith in the system, it's because either because they have been systematically disenfranchised or because their leaders have repeatedly told them that fraud is rampant when it is not.

Again, you can keep blaming whoever you want to blame, but blame won't fix the problem.

 

[Pixel42]

Republicans were never mentioned... 'crazy lib' is what Pixel42 said.

My post was in response to what mgidm86 was saying about his Trump supporting relatives. I probably should have quoted him to make that clear, here belatedly is the quote.

And that, in my experience is what it's all about. Fear of the liberals. Hey I don't like some things the Dems want to do either! But a lot of their fears are based on lies and exaggerations.

The violent riots in Portland, the unfortunate wording of "De-fund The Police". FOX jumped all over that. The message is "Crazy Liberals Want To Get Rid Of The Police! Look At The Riots!!! That's what they want!"

Yes, every person I have talked to says exactly that. So does everyone in the media - Trump supporters interviewed on the street, pundits, Hannity. It's all about the evil Dems. NOTHING MORE.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I would suggest that Democracies are in trouble because neither liberal nor conservative parties are offering meaningful solutions to the grave societal ills of our time. Seeing no meaningful solution, populations are scrapping the entire democratic framework out of desperation, often only making the problems worse.

Income inequality is growing at a staggering rate and more and more formerly secure people are sliding into poverty. The social safety net is being gutted and public infrastructure is allowed to rot. Meanwhile the wealthiest and most privileged among us are only becoming more powerful. The the wealthy few increasingly wield power over the powerless masses, it is becoming increasingly clear that these political systems are just not working.

The hollowing out of our societies is bringing out the worst in an increasingly desperate population, grasping at straws such as conspiratorialism, insular nationalism, or outright fascism as a solution. Like half-starved dogs fighting over table scraps, the increasingly poor material conditions for ordinary people have us going for eachothers throats.

TL;DR: Socialism or barbarism brah.

 

[trustbutverify]

It's funny that you don't see how your own name applies here.

The system is insecure. People don't have faith in it. You can keep trying to blame whomever you want to for that, but blame won't fix it.

I'm all in favor of optimizing the electoral mechanics for security, but reform in this context is 100% meaningless, because this cult would have believed anything their brain damaged guru would have told them regardless. They don't care how the votes were processed any more than creationists care how carefully fossils are removed from the ground. If I had to compare the dangers presented to US democratic institutions by electronic voting machines vs a cult of QAnon pizzagate believers worshiping a mentally ill clown, I'd say there's no comparison.

Why don't you address the questions raised in my comment? Where is anything remotely indicative of voter fraud in this election? Wouldn't you agree that "people don't have faith in it" because they don't want to have faith in it, rather than any rational explanation.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

given the massive incentive to detect voter fraud if the other side is doing it, it is highly unlikely that is is massive and widespread.

You are repeating what others have told you without thinking about it yourself.

 

[johnny karate]

The security of a system is not judged on what has happened, but what can happen.

The system isn't secure. There are too few mechanisms in place to actually detect and prevent fraud. That is true even if no fraud has occurred to date. Our elections are much more insecure than those of most other developed countries.



Again, you can keep blaming whoever you want to blame, but blame won't fix the problem.

Cite your sources, please.

 

[Dave Rogers]

The system is insecure.

Asserted without evidence.

People don't have faith in it.

Argumentum ad populum.

You can keep trying to blame whomever you want to for that, but blame won't fix it.

Assumes a conclusion.

Dave

 

[Ziggurat]

Argumentum ad populum.

Well, no. The fact that people don't have faith in the system is a description of a problem in and of itself. You may not care about that problem, but in a democracy, it matters. A lot.

Assumes a conclusion.

I haven't assumed that people don't have faith in the system. It's pretty well demonstrated.

 

[Ziggurat]

given the massive incentive to detect voter fraud if the other side is doing it

I don't care about incentives. I care about mechanisms. And the mechanisms are ****.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well, no. The fact that people don't have faith in the system is a description of a problem in and of itself. You may not care about that problem, but in a democracy, it matters. A lot.

You don't get to play that card when you're the one lying to people telling them the system is broken.

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<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Well, no. The fact that people don't have faith in the system is a description of a problem in and of itself. You may not care about that problem, but in a democracy, it matters. A lot.

Thing is, we all know why some people don't have faith in the system, and it's nothing to do with any actual attribute of the system. What needs to be fixed is the cause of people's lack of faith in the system - no, hang on, that already got sorted just over an hour ago.

Dave