Trump's accomplishments

Norman Alexander said:
Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there, or what the real deals were. Clueless is his watchword.
Click to expand...

I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do.
 
Trump has certainly revealed how little regard Republicans had for any of their own self-proclaimed deep seated convictions.
 
The only real accomplishment for me: the treaties between Israel and a number of Arab states.

Whatever one thinks about Trump and Kushner (I for one think very badly about them), they let the parties involved do what they have wanted to do for some time.

Is that a good thing? IMO, yes.

It goes without saying that it would have been better to achieve a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict too, a two-state solution guaranteeing bla bla bla (we all know the mantras about what a just and durable peace should encompass).

But that noble goal has eluded many US admins, Quartets, European initiatives, etc.
Blaming Trump for not achieving Israeli-Palestinian peace would be ridiculous.

It is my hope that an environment where Israel and many Arab states are cooperating, trading, is a better environment for eventual peace than the one we had before.

(I, as (((Firestone))), blame Netanyahu for not having opportunistically used a very pro Israeli US admin to try to get some agreement with the Palestinians, but he was way to busy running from the courts. Anyway, that's another matter.)
 
Last edited:
Ziggurat said:
I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do.
Click to expand...
My comment was to the effect that Jared was not in any way responsible for getting anything done in this arena. All the "success", for better or worse, was achieved by others. Comments above suggest it was mostly Israel - I am not sure.

But by assigning the responsibility for the outcomes on clueless idiot Jared, and thus by implication Trump and the USA, should anything go wrong later with these accords, Trump and the USA will be the ones taking all the blame.

That said, yes, this is progress of a sort. But then, the Middle East has always been an ever-changing mix of war and peace, alliances and aggression since forever. So this is just another such change.
 
Norman Alexander said:
My comment was to the effect that Jared was not in any way responsible for getting anything done in this arena.
Click to expand...

You have no insider knowledge, and are in no position to make that declaration. You say that because you can't conceive of it any other way, not because you actually have any evidence to that effect.
 
Ziggurat said:
You have no insider knowledge, and are in no position to make that declaration. You say that because you can't conceive of it any other way, not because you actually have any evidence to that effect.
Click to expand...
The process had been developing for many years before Kushner turned up. So if you want to say the US has been involved, it has...since the Obama Administration and quite possibly before that. Here's WaPo last August on the subject:
“The UAE-Israel strategic relationship was fueled by mutual fears of Iran and formalized by the United States,” said Karim Sadjadpour, a Middle East analyst at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “It’s an example of Trump slapping his name on a hotel that was essentially already built.”

...

“The same thing with Trump, who is trying very hard to distract attention” from his own problems with the virus, she said. “To show he can be a peacemaker even with something so minor as the UAE-Israeli agreement.”
Click to expand...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...45a358-defc-11ea-8051-d5f887d73381_story.html
 
For me, a lot of this comes down to "What if Obama did it?"

1.) If Obama did Space Force with all the references to Star Trek and other SF. Would we say, "LOL! Stooooopid!" Or would we say, "That's so cool! It's almost Elon Musk-eque and no one has a problem with that!" So let's give Trump that one.

2.) If Obama had got those diplomatic treaties between Israel and the Arab states, would people say it is a good thing or would they be finding reasons to deny they are worth anything / that he was not responsible? Well, obviously Republicans would, and it would be seen as evidence that nothing will please them. Don't do the same.

3.) Yeah, no wars for four years actually looks like an achievement now. This is one of the reasons I asked in a thread whether George W Bush was worse than him. Some people then pointed out some good things that GWB did that I was not aware of. Also, I believe he vetoed bills urging an end to Saudi involvement in Yemen, and he's probably not so much against wars happening as just not getting US military involved. Still, no US military involvement in wars for four years is generally considered a good thing.

This is all counterbalanced by the fact he has tried to destroy all democratic precedents in the US, and basically been a complete arse for four years, but you have to take the rough with the smooth.
 
angrysoba said:
For me, a lot of this comes down to "What if Obama did it?"

1.) If Obama did Space Force with all the references to Star Trek and other SF. Would we say, "LOL! Stooooopid!" Or would we say, "That's so cool! It's almost Elon Musk-eque and no one has a problem with that!" So let's give Trump that one.
Click to expand...
If Obama had created Space Force for the same reasons and using the same logos, etc, then I'm sure the response would be two-fold: What the hell?!! And what the heck has Barack been smokin' in his downtime? Overall, Space Force is simply a rebrand of the USAF Space Command that was expensive and unnecessary. So no "success" for Diaper Don there.

2.) If Obama had got those diplomatic treaties between Israel and the Arab states, would people say it is a good thing or would they be finding reasons to deny they are worth anything / that he was not responsible? Well, obviously Republicans would, and it would be seen as evidence that nothing will please them. Don't do the same.
Click to expand...
The outcome is desirable. It's a short step towards normalisation. But it's also a short step forward after the giant leap back of withdrawing from the Iran nuclear treaty. And the Trump administration had precious little to do with it anyway (see above). So a small success.

3.) Yeah, no wars for four years actually looks like an achievement now. This is one of the reasons I asked in a thread whether George W Bush was worse than him. Some people then pointed out some good things that GWB did that I was not aware of. Also, I believe he vetoed bills urging an end to Saudi involvement in Yemen, and he's probably not so much against wars happening as just not getting US military involved. Still, no US military involvement in wars for four years is generally considered a good thing.
Click to expand...
The US military overseas intervention situation has not really improved for 4 years. And there have been some withdrawals from some expensive and prolonged international campaigns. But most of it has been giving up control to either local despots, or international despots who have been waiting for the opportunity, making the situation worse and reneging on allies. Success?

This is all counterbalanced by the fact he has tried to destroy all democratic precedents in the US, and basically been a complete arse for four years, but you have to take the rough with the smooth.
Click to expand...
Internationally, he is a running joke behind his back, while being comprehensively out-diplomacied to his face. There's a simple one paragraph set of instructions that all foreign diplomats use to "play" Diaper Don. To the hilt.
 
Last edited:
Kushner's greatest achievement in the Middle East was to force Qatar into leasing his devil building for 99 years for $1.1 billion.
There has never been a greater act of corruption in US politics in terms of shear size.
 
Ziggurat said:
I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do.
Click to expand...

For example, by pretending the USA is the UN by "ceding" Western Sahara to Morocco. Easy to "accomplish" things when all you are doing is dismissing your commitment to the rule of law.

As for the Gulf states, as others have already observed, they need a local ally to counterbalance a regionally ambitious Turkey and the constant subterfuge of Iran in the Levant, Iraq and Syria... in the face of a now-irrelevant USA. For everyone now knows that if you are an ally of the US, you may very well die when the GOP lifts its girly skirts and runs from the battlefield on a fat man's whim. Note: The US now has a new sworn enemy, a former ally: the Kurds.

"Mission Accomplished", dear Vladimir. All yours now, the entire region has put the run on Yanks, even Israel, who has shown it alone will call the shots on Iran, thank ye kindly, the US being its useful idiot who will simply have to deal with Israeli facts on the ground.
 
Last edited:
Hlafordlaes said:
For example, by pretending the USA is the UN by "ceding" Western Sahara to Morocco. Easy to "accomplish" things when all you are doing is dismissing your commitment to the rule of law.

As for the Gulf states, as others have already observed, they need a local ally to counterbalance a regionally ambitious Turkey and the constant subterfuge of Iran in the Levant, Iraq and Syria... in the face of a now-irrelevant USA. For everyone now knows that if you are an ally of the US, you may very well die when the GOP lifts its girly skirts and runs from the battlefield on a fat man's whim. Note: The US now has a new sworn enemy, a former ally: the Kurds.
Click to expand...

THIS

Hlafordlaes said:
"Mission Accomplished", dear Vladimir. All yours now, the entire region has put the run on Yanks, even Israel, who has shown it alone will call the shots on Iran, thank ye kindly, the US being its useful idiot who will simply have to deal with Israeli facts on the ground.
Click to expand...

and THIS.

Trump has effectively handed control over to his controller!
 
Norman Alexander said:
The process had been developing for many years before Kushner turned up. So if you want to say the US has been involved, it has...since the Obama Administration and quite possibly before that. Here's WaPo last August on the subject:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...45a358-defc-11ea-8051-d5f887d73381_story.html
Click to expand...

So you don’t have any actual knowledge. You have second hand reporting of the opinions of people whom you don’t know if they have any insider knowledge, let alone what their motives are to spin it in whatever direction they want to, and you would have no idea.
 
Ziggurat said:
So you don’t have any actual knowledge. You have second hand reporting of the opinions of people whom you don’t know if they have any insider knowledge, let alone what their motives are to spin it in whatever direction they want to, and you would have no idea.
Click to expand...

I think accusing him of being a typical Trump supporter is a tad strong!
 
Norman Alexander said:
The outcome is desirable. It's a short step towards normalisation. But it's also a short step forward after the giant leap back of withdrawing from the Iran nuclear treaty. And the Trump administration had precious little to do with it anyway (see above). So a small success.
Click to expand...


And as always, when trying to compare "What if Obama had done it?" to any of Trump's achievements, you also have to consider the question of how they would do it. Trump largely achieved his gains in the Middle East by letting them buy tens of billions worth of advanced weapons. That's "winning diplomacy on the easy setting". Had Obama made the same deal, it's a lock that the Republicans would be decrying this deal as much as they did the Iran Deal. And Trump's deals provide much less benefit than the Iran Deal did.
 
Ziggurat said:
They aren’t peace treaties. They are normalization treaties, between countries which did not have normalized relations. And yes, it’s a big deal, and a step forward.

You believe it despite evidence to the contrary. Because reasons.
Click to expand...

Basically Trump threw the Palestinians under the bus to get whatever it is you think is a big deal.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom