Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[cullennz]

Sex segregation in chess is the weirdest one, for me. Are the top women grandmasters just not as ruthlessly aggressive as their male counterparts? Do they think about the the branching options differently and less efficiently? Is it just vestigial patriarchy?

I never realised that Chess was segregated.

Agree it is one of the oddies

Edit: Actually thinking about it the only non split off the top of my head are all the horse ones, like equestrian, and horse racing and then also motor racing.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm pretty sure he means me.

I frequently emphasize the importance of reproductive biology in these discussions, noting inherent differences between men and women, such as the fact that women can become pregnant.

Sometimes, a comment like that results in an idiot saying, "Meadmaker thinks that post-menopausal women aren't really women." There's one poster who is famous for saying stupid things like that, but he's not the only one. So, I head it off at the pass by preemptively calling them idiots before they have a chance to say something stupid.

Archie's description of the behavior in question is not accurate, but I am almost certain that's what he meant. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

ETA: Here's the most recent example. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13341861#post13341861

I'm glad you never said this

And if any idiot says "hysterectomy", "menopause" or any of the other stupid things people sometimes say in these discussions, I will treat such fools as they deserve by saying "Ni" to them, in large type. You have been warned.

I will up my dose of anti-realities.

 

[GlennB]

I never realised that Chess was segregated.

Agree it is one of the oddies

Well, the best ever woman player, Judit Polgar, eventually gave up on the women-only tournaments as she was too strong for them, and entered only open tournaments.

Polgár rarely played in women-specific tournaments or divisions and has never competed for the Women's World Championship: "I always say that women should have the self-confidence that they are as good as male players, but only if they are willing to work and take it seriously as much as male players."
(wiki)

 

[Manger Douse]

Relevance?

None

Why do you think there's such a big difference between those two weights?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

STUFF

And one more thing I will add...

Why do I not believe that these white knights are genuinely just looking out for women?

Because I remember the 'Google Memo' debate. When a lot of the same people were arguing... well women just aren't cut out for IT it's biology! sorry!

and i argued with them on that ******** too

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well, the best ever woman player, Judit Polgar, eventually gave up on the women-only tournaments as she was too strong for them, and entered only open tournaments.

Polgár rarely played in women-specific tournaments or divisions and has never competed for the Women's World Championship: "I always say that women should have the self-confidence that they are as good as male players, but only if they are willing to work and take it seriously as much as male players."
(wiki)

I'm genuinely confused by what the argument about chess is.

Women can't compete in chess...not for biological reasons but for psychological reasons ..... but psychology doesn't define a woman.... it's only biology...unless psychology matters... therefore???

 

[Meadmaker]

Because I remember the 'Google Memo' debate. When a lot of the same people were arguing... well women just aren't cut out for IT it's biology! sorry!

Name one.

I would be incredibly surprised if anyone on ISF said that, and doubly surprised if any of the "regulars" in this thread said it. I do not think the above is an accurate representation of whatever it was that actually happened.

 

[The Atheist]

Relevance?

None

Don't be ridiculous.

The claim has been made that women can train harder and compete with men.

That idea is absurdly untrue.

Given the OP of the entire thread, it's as on topic as it's possible to be, and completely relevant to the discussion. Of course, dismissing it is much easier than trying to refute the absolute fact that trans women have an enormous and unfair advantage in sports.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm genuinely confused by what the argument about chess is.

Women can't compete in chess...not for biological reasons but for psychological reasons ..... but psychology doesn't define a woman.... it's only biology...unless psychology matters... therefore???

If you think there's an argument about chess going on here, you must be confused, because no one is arguing about it.


Just in case you are interested, I'll repeat some information about the situation in chess.

There are people who believe that having women's only tournaments inspires girls to play chess. People who are really into chess think that it's cool if more people play chess. Some of them actually think it's important, and they are sad that so few girls get this awesome opportunity. That's all there is.

As for why there are so few world class women chess players, no one knows. There are a lot of theories. I think it's mostly cultural, but testing that theory is difficult.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Don't be ridiculous.

The claim has been made that women can train harder and compete with men.

That idea is absurdly untrue.

Given the OP of the entire thread, it's as on topic as it's possible to be, and completely relevant to the discussion. Of course, dismissing it is much easier than trying to refute the absolute fact that trans women have an enormous and unfair advantage in sports.

No that wasn't the claim at all. Try again.

Transwomen aren't men

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If you think there's an argument about chess going on here, you must be confused, because no one is arguing about it.

OK, clean your specs maybe

Just in case you are interested, I'll repeat some information about the situation in chess.

There are people who believe that having women's only tournaments inspires girls to play chess. People who are really into chess think that it's cool if more people play chess. Some of them actually think it's important, and they are sad that so few girls get this awesome opportunity. That's all there is.

As for why there are so few world class women chess players, no one knows. There are a lot of theories. I think it's mostly cultural, but testing that theory is difficult.

None of this is relevant to transwomen participating in womens chess tournaments other than to endorse that there is no reason to exclude them.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Name one.

I would be incredibly surprised if anyone on ISF said that, and doubly surprised if any of the "regulars" in this thread said it. I do not think the above is an accurate representation of whatever it was that actually happened.

I think the thread still exists.. go find it

And feel free to state your personal position on it here

 

[lionking]

No that wasn't the claim at all. Try again.

Transwomen aren't men

Avoiding the point about the difference in the records.

And yes, it has been proclaimed by Boudicca that women simply needed to train harder to compete against self identified transwomen.

 

[cullennz]

OK, clean your specs maybe



None of this is relevant to transwomen participating in womens chess tournaments other than to endorse that there is no reason to exclude them.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with transwomen playing against females in female's chess.

But then I wouldn't have a problem with transwomen and females playing in male's chess.

 

[Manger Douse]

I think the thread still exists.. go find it

Weren't you complaining about people accusing you of not providing evidence less than two pages ago? Seems the onus is on you to find that thread and back up your claim no?

 

[theprestige]

I'm genuinely confused by what the argument about chess is.

Women can't compete in chess...not for biological reasons but for psychological reasons ..... but psychology doesn't define a woman.... it's only biology...unless psychology matters... therefore???

There is no argument about chess. It is an acknowledged fact that on average women play at a lower level than men. There's some speculation about why this is, but at the moment your guess is as good as mine.

 

[theprestige]

I know this is a late hit, but is anyone else (belatedly) struck by Boudicca's mental image of a male looking down at their chemically-castrated penis and thinking, "I get it now! This is what it must be like to have a clitoris!"

 

[Ziggurat]

None of this is relevant to transwomen participating in womens chess tournaments other than to endorse that there is no reason to exclude them.

I don’t think anyone here has advocated excluding them.

 

[d4m10n]

Transwomen aren't men

Have you clearly defined either of these key terms?

 

[d4m10n]

I know this is a late hit, but is anyone else (belatedly) struck by Boudicca's mental image of a male looking down at their chemically-castrated penis and thinking, "I get it now! This is what it must be like to have a clitoris!"

I'd say this is a bit of a low blow; however, in the abstract it should be noted that clitori are generally highly functional if you've got one and you're hoping to have an orgasm.

(I know, the female orgasm isn't essential to sexual reproduction but if Mother Nature provides, well...)