Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Manger Douse]

Men's world weightlifting record (combined lift) 484 kg
Women's world record 332 kg

The girls just need to train harder

 

[theprestige]

The girls just need to train harder

Some girls do. Some girls are just naturally born with higher testosterone production, different skeletal structure, more muscle mass, etc. Serena Williams has to train harder. Roger Federer is one of those lucky girls who was born a better woman tennis player than Serena will ever be.

 

[Manger Douse]

Some girls do. Some girls are just naturally born with higher testosterone production, different skeletal structure, more muscle mass, etc. Serena Williams has to train harder. Roger Federer is one of those lucky girls who was born a better woman than Serena will ever be.

Oh indeed - certain posters ignoring that insult from a fellow male to just about every female on the planet yet screaming blue bloody murder if someone even potentially insults their fellow males is this thread in a nutshell

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't know what you're referring to here. I hope I didn't do that. If I did, I may have been misconstrued.

I'm pretty sure he means me.

I frequently emphasize the importance of reproductive biology in these discussions, noting inherent differences between men and women, such as the fact that women can become pregnant.

Sometimes, a comment like that results in an idiot saying, "Meadmaker thinks that post-menopausal women aren't really women." There's one poster who is famous for saying stupid things like that, but he's not the only one. So, I head it off at the pass by preemptively calling them idiots before they have a chance to say something stupid.

Archie's description of the behavior in question is not accurate, but I am almost certain that's what he meant. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

ETA: Here's the most recent example. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13341861#post13341861

 

[lionking]

When they make it clear by their actions then yes I do.

Women's sport has been for quite some time seen as an ugly stepsister to male sports. And that is reflected in the funding it receives, the attendances it garners, the pay of the participants and every other metric you care to throw at it.

Almost nobody could tell you who came second in the Nevada State Championships Women's 1500m UNTIL they come second to a transwoman and then suddenly everyone cares.
Nobody could tell you the names of the male prison guards who rape women every day but if it's a transwoman accused of it suddenly everyone can quote them back at you off the top of their head.

And I'm expected to believe all these old white men were intimately acquainted with the technical details of waxing people's bits or did they only give a **** when a transwoman started wanting it done?

I remember the 5 thread marathon on here 'Scrotum Waxing Best Practices' where did it go now?

You know who really care? Female athletes who are seeing their livelihoods and sometimes health (in contact sports) impacted by male bodied transwomen athletes.

 

[Manger Douse]

Has there been any transwomen taking part in sports where a male body isn't a massive advantage? Gymnastics say? Can't seem to see any

 

[theprestige]

"From now on, all businesses must Aryan owned."

"What about Jewish businesses?"

"Jews don't really matter. Also, if they don't like it, they should just train harder; the work will set them free."

 

[JoeMorgue]

I must also be missing all the biological females who just have to compete in male sports in order to satisfy their "gender identities."

"I finished #8,473 but I feel more comfortable in my own body" is not a phrase I've yet heard.

But much like how the fact 99% of CEOs are men bothers the hell out of women but the fact that 99% of combat deaths are men just magically doesn't...

And we're the ones being inconsistent in what we're angry about...

 

[Meadmaker]

What is more insulting is that one side in this argument is talking about actual daily occurrences of transgender people being discriminated against, alienated and harassed...

Actually, in this thread and on ISF in general, both sides are talking about daily occurrences of transgender people being discriminated against, alienated, and harassed. We're all against it. It comes up a lot.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again literally the only actual issues any of us have are:

- Legit questions as to the women only spaces and events.
- Being asked to literally conceptualize someone a specific way using their specific language in order to be seen as respecting them and treating them with civility and kindness.

This isn't like the race threads where you usually one or two unapologetic cartoonish racists floating around running the Bell Curve.

 

[Meadmaker]

Has there been any transwomen taking part in sports where a male body isn't a massive advantage? Gymnastics say? Can't seem to see any

I did a bit of googling, just a few minutes worth USA. Gymnastics announced a trans-inclusive policy recently. In those few minutes I didn't see any howling about specific athletes, which makes me think that there are no examples of transgirl gymnasts taking top honors. Most of the griping was about the fact that the transgirls might have to share a locker room.

That's a pretty easy problem to work around, though, as long as people are willing to work around it.

If transgirls start winning a lot of events, you'll hear complaints. My understanding is that, simply put, that won't happen. Women's gymnastics are set up to deemphasize strength and emphasize flexibility, where women's abilities exceed men's abilities. Transgirls would be at a disadvantage, I think.

It looks to me that perhaps in the vault a male might have an advantage due to the ability to jump higher, but it might be offset by having a larger moment of inertia, making all those tumbling twists and turns more difficult. I don't know.

I can't see a lot of untransitioned males rushing to compete on the uneven bars.

 

[Sherkeu]

I did a bit of googling, just a few minutes worth USA. Gymnastics announced a trans-inclusive policy recently. In those few minutes I didn't see any howling about specific athletes, which makes me think that there are no examples of transgirl gymnasts taking top honors. Most of the griping was about the fact that the transgirls might have to share a locker room.

That's a pretty easy problem to work around, though, as long as people are willing to work around it.

If transgirls start winning a lot of events, you'll hear complaints. My understanding is that, simply put, that won't happen. Women's gymnastics are set up to deemphasize strength and emphasize flexibility, where women's abilities exceed men's abilities. Transgirls would be at a disadvantage, I think.

It looks to me that perhaps in the vault a male might have an advantage due to the ability to jump higher, but it might be offset by having a larger moment of inertia, making all those tumbling twists and turns more difficult. I don't know.

I can't see a lot of untransitioned males rushing to compete on the uneven bars.

"Olympic Champions react to men doing women's gymnastics routines"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvz3F4HP170

Keep in mind that the various men performing are not known to either woman, both who competed at the very top. They do recognize the routines though and found the experience 'humbling' and were glad these guys never tried to compete against them. (They werent trying to prove any point from this...just having fun watching!)

 

[theprestige]

One of these days, someone is going to die in a fire because the transwoman firefighter wasn't strong enough to pull them out.

"I would have been," she'll explain tearfully on the talk show interview circuit. "But I was taking hormones to make myself weaker, like the woman I know I am."

"There there," Ellen will say comfortingly, patting her hand. "I'd offer you a sympathy screw, but I'm not attracted to your girl dick."

And that's how Ellen gets canceled.

 

[Meadmaker]

"Olympic Champions react to men doing women's gymnastics routines"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvz3F4HP170

Keep in mind that the various men performing are not known to either woman, both who competed at the very top. They do recognize the routines though and found the experience 'humbling' and were glad these guys never tried to compete against them. (They werent trying to prove any point from this...just having fun watching!)

Cool video. So it seems men do have a significant advantage there as well.

Rhythmic gymnastics, maybe? Synchronized swimming?

 

[Agatha]

Will you all please try much harder to avoid personalising your posts, and to stay on topic.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[d4m10n]

I must also be missing all the biological females who just have to compete in male sports in order to satisfy their "gender identities."

Anecdote, but bear w/ me.

When my wife was still an undergrad, she knew a student athlete who was highly competitive in her sport and wanted to transition, but knew she couldn't transition until she graduated. This was because testosterone is a performance enhancing drug, and because no provisions existed to allow her to compete in the NCAA men's leagues.

This isn't like the race threads where you usually one or two unapologetic cartoonish racists floating around running the Bell Curve.

Alas, it is analogous to those threads inasmuch as the people who say the differences between groups are significant and worth taking into account are being morally demonized rather than thoughtfully engaged.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I will openly say that I did think you some of your comments sounded misogynistic, although I'm quite sure I also said I believed it wasn't intentional. And I still don't understand why people being dicks to you is evidence for them inventing the positions they are claiming to support, or evidence for underlying transphobia. I'm frequently a dick about things I actually believe. (I don't really understand what sealioning is either, though, btw. I hate all these new internet words - I can never keep up.)

Ok im going to engage... because this seems like a reasoned response. And for the record I don't know if you are a man or a woman. Until now I had assumed you were probably a man because your profile pic looked male to me. Just for the people who have accused me of not replying to women i don't judge responses on gender.

I'd love to know specifically what i said that you considered misogynistic. For sure I have dismissed the view that promoting trans rights is a misogynistic conspiracy to deny women their rights. I have no intention to deny women their rights. If you feel I do I would love to hear your thoughts and engage with them directly.

My issue in the above paragraph is that you explicitly said ONE side is engaging in bad faith. If you honestly think that I don't think you have read the thread. I would say that someone explicitly saying that trans activism is a conspiracy by men to usurp female rights is at least equally bad faith if not more. do you disagree? [/quote]

Okay, I at least understand what you're saying now. And I can actually see your point. You might be right, but there are other possibilities too. Maybe an old white man has no reason to think about these issues until the trans debate brings them up.

Well that seems like it would pretty much be bigotry or prejudice by definition? When cismen were perving on the women in the toilets i was ok with it but when trans people do it that has to be stopped!

That's kind of the point i'm raising.

And also reflect that they DON'T bring up these issues unless they are trans. If someone was on here and saying 'hey Jo Smith transwoman sexually assaulted a female prisoner in jail and I looked into it and Joe Smith cisman prison officer sexually assaulted 10 female prisoners in jail and we need to do something about this now' I would have sympathy for that.

But all we get is Jo Smith sexually assaulted a female prisoner ergo all trans people have to be excluded from female prisons.

I'm not an old white man, but I never thought much about fairness in women's sports until someone asked me "so how is that supposed to work with trans people?" At which point I had to say, "Oh. I dunno!" Which is pretty much what I've said with regard to sports this whole thread. I just have no idea. I have no solution to offer there. But I do understand the problem.

And that's fine. I also don't know exactly. what i have offered is 'if you have good reason to discriminate then i'm probably ok with it' I don't want a ciswoman being battered to death in a boxing ring in the name of equality. But i also don't want a transwoman being excluded from playing soccer because their genitals don't match their gender.

Do you mean that male guards should be banned from working in female prisons and vice-versa? I've actually thought that before. I guess the reason it hasn't been tried comes down to physical strength? (Just my guess, haven't Googled.) Maybe they need some men around for if there's a full-scale riot, though I would think weapons could easily even the score.

My point is that if you are concerned about women being sexually assaulted in prisons then your focus has to be the male guards. If your focus is excluding transwomen then you will highlight them. I don't know what the answer is but the problem of sexual assault is predominately about male staff.

I do see your point. But that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone here. It's easy to see the potential problems with regard to women's sport and transwomen athletes, even if disingenuous actors have also taken up the cause as a shield.

I don't disagree completely. But the question of what is and isn't fair competition is one for the medics and sports authorities. My position is that you have to show it's a problem before it is a problem. But my wider position is that the majority of these guys who suddenly are anti trans never gave a hoot or womens sports.and that is borne out broadly in the attendance figures

No, I think both sides have people who have been/are being insulting. I just think posters such as yourself and Upchurch have seemingly decided to lump everyone with ANY question or objection in with the bad-faith guys, and I don't think that's fair, because we're skeptics and we're talking about the kind of stuff that is catnip to skeptics - the nature of reality, mind/body dualism, so-called legal fictions, solipsism vs. collectivism, nature vs. nurture. All that good stuff.

This bit i struggle with and would love you to expand. what is your issue here? For me I see a lot of wannabee Sam Harrises thinking that their logic is the be all and end all and everyone else who disagrees is just denying reality.

If you go back and look at the Leela Alcorn thread, you'll see that I am not anti-trans in the slightest. And I personally have no problem with treating them as their preferred sex/gender in literally any scenario (with the possible exception of intercourse, but even that isn't written in stone for me). I'm just hung up on the current trend toward "an individual's biological sex [as opposed to gender] is whatever they say it is." My mind just can't process that.

I'm not familiar with the leela acorn thread. all i will say is that at the end of the day i think i respect everyone's ability to come to their own conclusions. my only objection begins at the point that you want to deny things to others.

As I said earlier, though, at the end of the day, I do not need to understand. I'm going to keep trying, though. We live in a world where fiction is blending with reality more, and "newspeak" words are kinda starting to seem like an actual thing, and I just get uneasy about that kind of stuff. It must be dissected.

This is the thing that worries me. Life is complicated. Reality is complicated. Sometimes we have to be OK with ambiguity and our best understanding. Things should be dissected. But they should be dissected with an open mind and with empathy. I don't see a lot of empathy for transpeople by those on this thread who oppose their rights. The damn title of the thread repeated 5 times is a straight up insult. Would this place allow 'Black people are *******' to be repeated so many times? and i'm hoping that gets blanked.

[/quote]

But I do not actually have any desire to block transwomen from any space that I might occupy. I'm not as comfortable as you seem to be with dismissing the concerns of women who feel differently than I do, or assuming they're all transphobes, and I think that's ultimately why we're butting heads a bit.

And that's the thing. I'm not dismissing them per se. I'm asking for justification. And the justifications so far have mostly been hypotheticals. But meanwhile transwomen are suffering REAL problems. So what i am saying is let's just do away with all these problems unless you have a convincing reason why we cant.

And what i get back is what if Mike Tyson says he's a woman and kills someone in the ring! Do you see why that might not be convincing?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Men's world weightlifting record (combined lift) 484 kg
Women's world record 332 kg

Relevance?

None

 

[theprestige]

Anecdote, but bear w/ me.

When my wife was still an undergrad, she knew a student athlete who was highly competitive in her sport and wanted to transition, but knew she couldn't transition until she graduated. This was because testosterone is a performance enhancing drug, and because no provisions existed to allow her to compete in the NCAA men's leagues.

I guess she identified more as a competitive athlete than as a man. Is this what is meant by "nonbinary"?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

We're all against it. .

Incorrect