Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Upchurch]

\Okay. Then what is gender then?

Alright, we'll put a pin in gender roles for the moment.

I would define gender as a culturally defined status that represents a particular mix of masculine and feminine traits. That mix may be 100% masculine and 0% feminine. It may be 100% feminine and 0% masculine. It maybe 30:70, 50:50, or anything other ratio. It may also be 0:0 for non-gendered* people.

I want to make this part clear, genders are defined by the culture. While most western cultures have only two genders, other cultures can have 3 or 4.

******

So, a gender is a status defined by a culture as a representation of some mix of masculine and feminine traits. A gender roles is a set of actions culturally associated with a gender, but not exclusive to that gender.

Can we agree on that genders and gender roles are not the same thing?




* earlier, I used the phrase asexual. I meant non-gendered.

 

[theprestige]

Alright, we'll put a pin in gender roles for the moment.

I would define gender as a culturally defined status that represents a particular mix of masculine and feminine traits. That mix may be 100% masculine and 0% feminine. It may be 100% feminine and 0% masculine. It maybe 30:70, 50:50, or anything other ratio. It may also be 0:0 for non-gendered* people.

I want to make this part clear, genders are defined by the culture. While most western cultures have only two genders, other cultures can have 3 or 4.

******

So, a gender is a status defined by a culture as a representation of some mix of masculine and feminine traits. A gender roles is a set of actions culturally associated with a gender, but not exclusive to that gender.

Can we agree on that genders and gender roles are not the same thing?

I sure can agree to this. I've been using "gender" and "sex" to make this distinction, though. Unless you're saying that genders, gender roles, and sex are not the same things. In which case you've got three entities where I only have two, and we'll need to converse some more.

 

[The Atheist]

Does anyone here think Matthew Boling^WP should be allowed to set women's world records, in the unlikely event he realizes she was a woman all along?

Does anyone here think Glenn v. Brumby^WP was wrongly decided?

Anyone answering with anything other than a resounding no is just wrong.

Out of curiosity, is bottom surgery a covered benefit under NZ health systems?

Yes it is.

However, funds are limited and only cover a fraction of requests, so the waiting list is 30 years. No, I'm not joking, it really is 30 years, but reducing slowly.

You are saying that gender roles are cultural constructs, not that genders, themselves, are cultural constructs.

Does that even matter? Whether it is or not, we have trans people and it's the real-world situations that matter.

Based solely on what I've read*, I'd say Boudicca is a woman.

You're wrong.

She isn't and can never be.

She doesn't have XX chromosomes, a uterus, wasn't born female and has clearly no idea of women's rights.

I have no issue seeing Boudicca as a woman. She's a woman. Her gender is feminine. She's welcome at my all-girl sewing circle.

How about in sports?

Or a women's refuge?

 

[Upchurch]

The terminology I have seen used is "gender neutral". I don't know fi that's the generally approved version.

Yeeeeah, I caught that as I was scrolling back for reference. My bad.

Ok. That's an answer, but when it comes to the core question of "Is she a woman", it is obvious you must be using a different definition of "woman" than I am. I know my definition, and she doesn't fit. There's really no room for debate on that issue.

You must have a different definition.

Yes. I assume you are using a definition where gender is based exclusively on sex?

 

[Upchurch]

I sure can agree to this. I've been using "gender" and "sex" to make this distinction, though. Unless you're saying that genders, gender roles, and sex are not the same things.

I am. But first we need to figure out where we can agree.

 

[Meadmaker]

Yes. I assume you are using a definition where gender is based exclusively on sex?

I edited my previous response to give my definition.

I would say I am using a definition where being a "woman" or "man" is based exclusively on sex.

"Gender" is a different thing, and unless it's necessary to do so, I won't confuse it in my defnition of "man" or "woman".

 

[Upchurch]

I would say I am using a definition where being a "woman" or "man" is based exclusively on sex.

"Gender" is a different thing, and unless it's necessary to do so, I won't confuse it in my defnition of "man" or "woman".

Then, I would point out that your definition of gender is incomplete as it does not account for all uses of the word gender, particularly of those gender systems that contain more than two genders. How would you account for those uses?

 

[Meadmaker]

Then, I would point out that your definition of gender is incomplete as it does not account for all uses of the word gender, particularly of those gender systems that contain more than two genders. How would you account for those uses?

I'm not defining "gender" at all. it is completely and totally separate from my definition of "man" or "woman".

 

[Upchurch]

I'm not defining "gender" at all. it is completely and totally separate from my definition of "man" or "woman".

Sorry. I should have read more closely.

Are you saying that "man" and "woman" are kinds of biological sex?

What, then, is gender?

 

[Meadmaker]

Sorry. I should have read more closely.

Are you saying that "man" and "woman" are kinds of biological sex?

Yes.

What, then, is gender?

In archaic use it was a synonym for "sex". However, in modern parlance, it is not something very important to me, so I will use someone else's definition

"a culturally defined status that represents a particular mix of masculine and feminine traits." works for me.

 

[Upchurch]

In archaic use it was a synonym for "sex". However, in modern parlance, it is not something very important to me, so I will use someone else's definition

"a culturally defined status that represents a particular mix of masculine and feminine traits." works for me.

Okay. So, for now, you are okay with "man" and "woman" being types of genders and, without having defined them yet, we'll reserve "male" and "female" as types of biological sex?

 

[The Atheist]

Are you saying that "man" and "woman" are kinds of biological sex?

[/insert light bulb emoji]

Let's drop the whole "man/woman" thing. It's the biggest red herring since Lars caught that one in 1732.

Humans are just another mammal, and male and female work much better - then there's no need to keep on this pointless - and after 53,000 posts, bloody tedious - track.

Humans also include some members whose brains believe they were born with the wrong body/gender identification. This encompasses both trans and intersex.

There you go - start from there, then tell me how a person born in a non-female body is actually female. Thinking it is not being it.

Also, please do tell what you think about people born male competing against people born female in sports. Feel free to include a few reasons if your answer isn't no. Or, if you've covered it before, just point me to the post.

Thanks

 

[Meadmaker]

Sorry. I should have read more closely.

Are you saying that "man" and "woman" are kinds of biological sex?

Yes.

Okay. So, for now, you are okay with "man" and "woman" being types of genders

"Man" and "woman" are kinds of biological sex. It says so right there.

 

[Ron Obvious]

Yes.
In archaic use it was a synonym for "sex". However, in modern parlance, it is not something very important to me, so I will use someone else's definition

When did we start using the word "gender" anyway? I don't seem to remember hearing it applied to humans until maybe the early 90s myself. I think it was used only for nouns in gendered languages like French or German before that.

Or at least that's when I seem to remember hearing it for the first time. Is that archaic already?

 

[Upchurch]

Let's drop the whole "man/woman" thing. It's the biggest red herring since Lars caught that one in 1732.

I was trying to understand Meadmaker's usage, especially since I managed to get it wrong the first time. That is all.

 

[Upchurch]

"Man" and "woman" are kinds of biological sex. It says so right there.

Okay. For the time being, can we agree that they are also two types of genders? Or are there other terms you would prefer?

 

[Elaedith]

Okay. For the time being, can we agree that they are also two types of genders? Or are there other terms you would prefer?

Why don't you explain why we need genders.

 

[d4m10n]

Can we agree that genders and gender roles are different things?

I'm thinking about giving up "gender" as a standalone word since it is typically intended to convey either "gender identity," "gender expression," or "gender role" in practice. If it were generally obvious which one was meant, well, things would be different than they are now.

Why don't you explain why we need genders.

See now this is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Meadmaker]

Okay. For the time being, can we agree that they are also two types of genders? Or are there other terms you would prefer?

That isn't my usage. "Man" and "woman" refer to sex.

I don't know how I can wrap "a culturally defined status that represents a particular mix of masculine and feminine traits." onto "man" and "woman".

 

[Upchurch]

Why don't you explain why we need genders.

The short answer is that genders are different than biological sex, as evidenced by the various gender systems that exist in the world and throughout history, but I'd rather not get side-tracked just yet.