Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[JoeMorgue]

And it's not just the "your extremism is alienating people" thing either.

If we don't have a clear understand of what people actually want and the people we're supposed to be helping take offense at even beginning to explain what they want... what are we supposed to do exactly?

I want to help Boudicca. I don't want anyone to live their life as scared and angry as she obviously is. But you got to give me something to work with here.

 

[d4m10n]

My mistake. I should have stuck with my plan. Carry on.

I'm just done here.

Of course no one is required to participate but I (for one) enjoy having a broad diversity of opinions and values represented. To whom shall we now turn to argue for the proposition that there are literally no ethically cognizable differences between cis women and trans women?

ETA: Presumably not LJ, who tends to retreat to the motte.

Even allies like London John, as supportive as he has been, has a point where he is willing to discriminate against us.

 

[Tony99]

I'm just done here.

Arguing with you people over what I consider to be our civil rights to be seen and accepted as women and not be excluded from places and opportunities that belong to all women, cis or trans, is pointless and is only leading to more bigotry and hatred.

As well as personal attacks against me that I'm deluded or insane or I'm just faking and I'm not who I say I am. I have never lied about anything, either who I am or my views on things. But no one here gives a crap about anything I or any other trans woman says.

I'm done with putting up with this crap and constantly having to defend myself and other trans women, I'm going through a lot right now and I don't need this as well.

Discuss what you want to discuss, come to a compromise on how much you want to discriminate against us, but I'm not participating any longer.

I'm done.

Sometimes the 'struggle' becomes the only identity. Don't let 'fighting for the cause' be the only thing you have.

 

[theprestige]

And it's not just the "your extremism is alienating people" thing either.

If we don't have a clear understand of what people actually want and the people we're supposed to be helping take offense at even beginning to explain what they want... what are we supposed to do exactly?

I want to help Boudicca. I don't want anyone to live their life as scared and angry as she obviously is. But you got to give me something to work with here.

The weird thing is that denying sexual dimorphism isn't even necessary to accommodate pretty much everything Boudicca wants anyway. She's marvelously wrongheaded about biology and sex, but that's pretty much beside the point of what we're trying to accomplish.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

10% still doesn't seem like an enormous advantage to me.

When I had to run for PT in the military, the fastest people were always the tallest. Did I complain that it was unfair because I was 5'8" competing against guys who were over 6"? No, they got the luck of the draw there. I could train to the point of matching or exceeding them, but I would also have to put in more work to do so.

Disingenuous comparison. PT tests aren't a competition against your highest-performing peers; one's performance is measured against an objective scale, and it isn't one that is hard to pass (nor indeed even max) as long as one is reasonably in shape. Also, my own experience when in the U.S. Army was a bit different: I'm 5'5", and had little trouble consistently getting near-max scores on the two mile run; and I wasn't even a competitive runner.

 

[Meadmaker]

The weird thing is that denying sexual dimorphism isn't even necessary to accommodate pretty much everything Boudicca wants anyway. She's marvelously wrongheaded about biology and sex, but that's pretty much beside the point of what we're trying to accomplish.

I've talked about locker rooms myself a lot, and someone like Boudicca90, whose body has been substantially altered by female hormones already, is in what I would call a "grey area" for locker room use access anyway.

I'm pretty adamant that untransitioned males ought to stay out of the girls' locker room, and that surgically transitioned transpeople should go to the place that matches their altered anatomy, but for people who have been substantially altered but less than full surgical transition, I don't have a very strong opinion. Pragmatism should rule the day.

Or, to put it differently, I'm a transphobic, hateful, bigot. Or so I'm told.

 

[Sherkeu]

And it's not just the "your extremism is alienating people" thing either.

If we don't have a clear understand of what people actually want and the people we're supposed to be helping take offense at even beginning to explain what they want... what are we supposed to do exactly?

I want to help Boudicca. I don't want anyone to live their life as scared and angry as she obviously is. But you got to give me something to work with here.

I think Boudicca isn't describing the underlying reasons well. But there are advocates for it:

(wiki: Feminine essence concept):

This idea is associated with, but separate from the brainsex theory of transsexualism, which is a belief about a neurodevelopmental cause of transsexualism. Proponents of the brainsex theory of transsexualism draw a distinction between "brain sex" and "anatomical sex". Some proponents reject the term transsexual, as the trans- prefix implies that their true sex is changing, instead of being affirmed, with treatments like sex reassignment surgery.

Therefore, Boudicca claims she has always been biologically female, just with a different development that needs some correction to be fully her true female self. In this thinking, anatomical parts usually considered 'male' do not matter. It is the "true self", I suppose somewhere in the brain, that makes one a real biological female.
This is why calling her male in any way becomes some sort of offensive statement.

 

[Paul2]

I think Boudicca isn't describing the underlying reasons well. But there are advocates for it:

(wiki: Feminine essence concept):



Therefore, Boudicca claims she has always been biologically female, just with a different development that needs some correction to be fully her true female self. In this thinking, anatomical parts usually considered 'male' do not matter. It is the "true self", I suppose somewhere in the brain, that makes one a real biological female.
This is why calling her male in any way becomes some sort of offensive statement.

Thank you for that explanation/hypothesis.

So if by "biological female" you don't mean an organism with female gametes, but a homo sapiens with a female brain, then we still have to have a way to discuss a homo sapiens with female gametes, as the presence or not of those gametes do matter for some things in society, but we're right back to not being female in every single way.

What we mean by the words we use matters very much, and yet we get so hung up on words.

 

[8enotto]

I did a yearly refresher run after a night of drinking. I never asked my time as being waved off was good enough for me. I didn't bother changing out of boots and many showed up in jogging outfits.

A friend later said I did quite good but he struggled to barely get through it. I wasn't feeling any pain for that but damn, he ate up half my Tylenol to get through the next day.

The AF just used them to get the poor ones in shape before any deployment.

 

[The Atheist]

I'm just done here.

That's two.

Third time's the charm?

 

[Joe Random]

That's two.

Third time's the charm?

Not to quibble, and I don't know the exact number myself, but you apparently missed at least two separate sets of "done with the lot of you!" declarations a few weeks plus back. Almost as if feeling persecuted were the goal itself ...

 

[The Atheist]

Not to quibble, and I don't know the exact number myself, but you apparently missed at least two separate sets of "done with the lot of you!" declarations a few weeks plus back.

Most likely - I don't read all of it.

Almost as if feeling persecuted were the goal itself ...

That's highly likely - like conspiracists and god-botherers who get banned from here, it's always because we wouldn't believe the Truth.

In cases like this one, it enables the poster to explain how hard they tried, but the bigots won't listen.

 

[cullennz]

From what Boudicca has said throughout these threads, she doesn’t care about sportsmanship or fair competition at all. It seems to be more about appearance and the performance value.

Boudicca thinks biological males (who identify as women) have the right to perform as women along with actual biological females. That this will, in some sports, destroy any sense of fair competition doesn’t matter, because it’s not about fair competition to begin with. The only thing that does matter is the “right” of self-ID transwomen to perform their chosen sport(s) alongside natal females, thus fully validating transwomen as “women”.

Her earlier posts suggested this view and her more recent comments reinforce it.

I some sports it is not just fair competition. It includes the basic safety of people.

 

[cullennz]

I think Boudicca isn't describing the underlying reasons well. But there are advocates for it:

(wiki: Feminine essence concept):

That was quite a funny read

 

[d4m10n]

Just trying to get a sense of where the local Overton window is, in this thread, given recent events.

Does anyone here think Matthew Boling^WP should be allowed to set women's world records, in the unlikely event he realizes she was a woman all along?

Does anyone here think Glenn v. Brumby^WP was wrongly decided?

 

[Meadmaker]

Just trying to get a sense of where the local Overton window is, in this thread, given recent events.

Does anyone here think Matthew Boling^WP should be allowed to set women's world records, in the unlikely event he realizes she was a woman all along?

That would be bad.

Does anyone here think Glenn v. Brumby^WP was wrongly decided?

I haven't read the whole opinion, but based on what I read, it seems like a good ruling. At the very least, it's good policy. My only hesitation would be that courts ought not be making policy, but I think based on the time frame when it occurred, it was probably also in line with court rulings, so it was also good law.

 

[cullennz]

Does anyone here think Glenn v. Brumby^WP was wrongly decided?

As much as some people think everyone else should base their lives on US precedent court decisions, do you mind just giving a summary of what the case was about, rather than everyone non US, (and probably a few US people) don't have to study something that doesn't really matter much?

 

[Meadmaker]

As much as some people think everyone else should base their lives on US precedent court decisions, do you mind just giving a summary of what the case was about, rather than everyone non US, (and probably a few US people) don't have to study something that doesn't really matter much?

Man hired as a "legislative editor" by the Georgia General Assembly announces he is transgender. Tells boss he is starting process of transitioning to woman. Starts wearing women's clothing to work. Is fired. Court rules that is discrimination on the basis of sex, which is banned for that sort of employment. Case was in 2011.

 

[Sherkeu]

As much as some people think everyone else should base their lives on US precedent court decisions, do you mind just giving a summary of what the case was about, rather than everyone non US, (and probably a few US people) don't have to study something that doesn't really matter much?

From the linked overview. I think they notable word here is 'sex-based' ...not sure. Started in 2007 with a gender change and subsequent firing, court case stems from 2010.

Glenn v. Brumby et al., 724 F. Supp. 2d 1284 (N.D. Ga. 2010), is an American federal court case relating to the rights of transgender people. The case involved Vandy Beth Glenn, a transgender woman living in Georgia, who was dismissed from her job as a legislative editor at the Georgia General Assembly in 2007 on informing her supervisor, Sewell Brumby, of her transgender status.

The lawsuit claimed that the state's action violated the provisions of the Equal Protection Clause against sex-based discrimination.

Glenn prevailed in the United States District Court; the district court's judgment was upheld on appeal.

 

[cullennz]

Man hired as a "legislative editor" by the Georgia General Assembly announces he is transgender. Tells boss he is starting process of transitioning to woman. Starts wearing women's clothing to work. Is fired. Court rules that is discrimination on the basis of sex, which is banned for that sort of employment. Case was in 2011.

Sounds more of a case of the US having atrociously bad employee rights laws.

Mind you ours are a bit OTT the other way, so it works both ways.