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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Worked the other way 'round in Albania for a while, too. "Oh, your family has no patriarch to represent them in community affairs? Well, now your senior female gets to wear pants and be a man among men. Problem solved!"
 
I promised myself I was going to lay off and let things work themselves out as they will, but this:

That's why the comparison to Civil Rights and Gay Rights don't 100% work. I know the difference between black people and white people and between gay people and straight people.

Does this statement not just automatically throw up some red flags? Ignore for the moment that race is a non-binary spectrum between multiple different parameters and largely a social construct.

How do you know who someone is sexually attracted to without them telling you, literally, how they identify? (or "which one they are", if that makes it easier to understand.) You can't look at someone and know what their sexual preferences are. It won't come out in a blood test. Even their behavior isn't necessarily an indicator, because some gay people live almost their entire lives in the closet, get married*, and have kids.

And it is clearly a non-binary spectrum. There is no question that bisexual people exist and there are even people who are asexual. I consider myself a straight man, but I will fully back the notion that George Clooney is one handsome man.


* heterosexually married, I mean
 
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Apparently it works in Iran, which is weird. If you're a guy who wants to have sex with a guy, they'll hang you, but you can change to a woman and it's all good.

Or so I'm told. I don't know what really happens in practice, and isn't particularly relevant here, except as an object lesson in what actual extremism looks like, as opposed to "anyone who disagrees with me in the slightest must be an extremist."

But your point is well taken.

Whistleblowers in the Tavistock clinic in the UK were quoted as saying some parents appeared to want their child to be transgender and straight rather than gay. Ken Zucker (who would have to be regarded as one of the world's foremost experts on gender dysphoria) also confirmed this phenomenon in this interview at 19.00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvHxylXOVKg&ab_channel=BenjaminABoyce
 
ETA: Fixed the quotes

Does this statement not just automatically throw up some red flags? Ignore for the moment that race is a non-binary spectrum between multiple different parameters and largely a social construct.

Could you put more 3rd rail buzzwords into a sentence if you actually tried?

How do you know who someone is sexually attracted to without them telling you, literally, how they identify? (or "which one they are", if that makes it easier to understand.) You can't look at someone and know what their sexual preferences are. It won't come out in a blood test. Even their behavior isn't necessarily an indicator, because some gay people live almost their entire lives in the closet, get married*, and have kids.

Oh this isn't that complicated stop pretending it is. I never said that I had "gaydar." I said that what the functional difference between a gay person and a straight person is defined; which gender they are attracted to.

We're 5 continuations into just the most recent thread on just the most recent subtopic about this overall topic and I understand what the difference between a biological male who just wants to be a woman and a biological male who "identifies" as a woman so has therefore magically turned into one even less than ever and no it's not because I'm not listening or not trying.
 
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That's what is going on. Not just here, but everywhere this debate occurs. I don't think there's any way around it currently.

Hope I explained that okay, not feeling very eloquent today.

Spot on, I thought.

One side needs to move, and I'm bloody well certain which one it is right now.

We've reached a time when compromise is impossible - whichever axe is being ground must be ground to zero tolerance.

I would have thought that the enormous strides made in trans acceptance in such a short time would have encouraged trans activists to think a bit more deeply about where they are and what they want next, but they're incapable of accepting anything less than 100% acceptance of their radical agenda.

Just hope to christ there are no more world wars, because the prevailing attitude will be to wipe the other side off the face of the earth and plough their fields with salt.
 
I noted earlier that this discussion won't ever get anywhere. It can't, because one "side" is unable to take anything the other "side" says at face value. Anyone who expresses concerns about sports or hormones or terminology or whatever is dismissed as a bigot.

It's even worse than this, IMO.

If you were to ask directly whether there ought to be sports leagues and record books set aside for individuals who've never experienced male puberty, most of the people who see themselves as "allies" won't even answer the question. They are, I assume, waiting to see what position will prove broadly acceptable when this thread is revisited ten years hence.
 
Exactly. Boudicca90 has previous argued that there should be no restrictions on transwomen participating. With all the biological disadvantages for female athletes.


From what Boudicca has said throughout these threads, she doesn’t care about sportsmanship or fair competition at all. It seems to be more about appearance and the performance value.

Boudicca thinks biological males (who identify as women) have the right to perform as women along with actual biological females. That this will, in some sports, destroy any sense of fair competition doesn’t matter, because it’s not about fair competition to begin with. The only thing that does matter is the “right” of self-ID transwomen to perform their chosen sport(s) alongside natal females, thus fully validating transwomen as “women”.

Her earlier posts suggested this view and her more recent comments reinforce it.
 
My mistake. I should have stuck with my plan. Carry on.

Oh stop it. You're not coming across anywhere near with the high ground you think you are.

Simple, basic, non-hateful questions are being asked. Get off your "I've decided I'm now too good to speak to you" high horse.
 
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I want to explain a little bit more about my last comment to Upchurch. Some of it is really straightforward. i asked some questions that he ignored. Oh, well.


But there's more to it than that. I think in general there's a lot of avoidance going on, and refusal to look at the actual questions. These conversations go around and around because some people just refuse to come to a meaningful position, and if they have to deny reality in order to do it, then by gum they will deny reality.

I try not to get too deep down the semantic rabbit hole of "What is a woman?", but if you are going to insist that somebody is indeed a woman, when lots of people insist that the person isn't a woman, then at that point the most sensible thing to do really is to compare definitions of "woman". That's hard to do if one of the people arguing refuses to provide a definition.

Whether the subject is sports or locker rooms or detransitioning, people won't discuss the problems head on. If I start talking about locker rooms, I'll guarantee that other people will talk about bathrooms. They'll pretend that in these spaces that exist so that the opposite sex cannot see people undressing, no one ever sees anyone undressed. For sports they'll say it doesn't matter anyway, or that you know there was this one time where.....They'll deny the reality of detransitioning. They'll start talking about black people or gay rights.

It makes things complicated.

i don't think I've done that, but if I have, I'll try to do better in the future. I feel like I'm doing it sometimes because I'm trying to not offend anyone with my terminology, but that's a dead end because the terminology changes all the time. Anyway, if anyone thinks I have, I'll try to not do it in the future, and I'll try to make my position and reasoning as clear as possible. All I ask in return is that you not try to distort it, and I'll do the same.
 
I'm just done here.

Arguing with you people over what I consider to be our civil rights to be seen and accepted as women and not be excluded from places and opportunities that belong to all women, cis or trans, is pointless and is only leading to more bigotry and hatred.

As well as personal attacks against me that I'm deluded or insane or I'm just faking and I'm not who I say I am. I have never lied about anything, either who I am or my views on things. But no one here gives a crap about anything I or any other trans woman says.

I'm done with putting up with this crap and constantly having to defend myself and other trans women, I'm going through a lot right now and I don't need this as well.

Discuss what you want to discuss, come to a compromise on how much you want to discriminate against us, but I'm not participating any longer.

I'm done.
 
But no one here gives a crap about anything I or any other trans woman says.

I think it's clear that a lot of people currently active in the thread very much care about what you have to say. Not agreeing isn't the same as not caring.

Ironically, it seems like it's mainly the other trans-activists here who are downplaying or ignoring what you have to say. After your recent statements about being biologically female, there were some attempts at a fringe reset (erasing all the arguments and conclusions so far and having a 'do-over' of the entire debate). But none of the allies seem willing to either repudiate or defend your position, or even acknowledge it at all.
 
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But no one here gives a crap about anything I or any other trans woman says.


I give a crap what my ex has to say, and (incidentally) her positions on the various aspects of the debate don't always align with yours. I doubt you'd say she's a bigot too, but maybe you'd say she has some sort of Stockholm syndrome or something. (She doesn't - you'll never find a tougher or more self-aware lady.)

The point is - speaking of spectrums - there's a spectrum of positions on the trans issue, as well. You fall more toward the extreme end of pro, from what I've seen you express. So extreme, in fact, that you seem to view allies with questions or slightly less extreme positions as the outright opposition.

I can't shake the feeling that it's because you don't believe their concerns are sincere, but rather some sort of "concern trolling" to cover for a deep anti-trans agenda.

Look, I'm sure you've run into a lot of that kind of crap over the years, and if I were you, I might be a bit touchy and gun-shy too. But you've abandoned any semblance of reason, and you're demonizing people needlessly.
 
I think it's clear that a lot of people currently active in the thread very much care about what you have to say. Not agreeing isn't the same as not caring.

Ironically, it seems like it's mainly the other trans-activists here who are downplaying or ignoring what you have to say. After your recent statements about being biologically female, there were some attempts at a fringe reset (erasing all the arguments and conclusions so far and having a 'do-over' of the entire debate). But none of the allies seem willing to either repudiate or defend your position, or even acknowledge it at all.
It's also ironic that almost everyone on this thread, including EC and including lurkers like myself, supports trans rights. Taking extreme positions that are demonstrably false like "I am biologically female" alienates people who should be allies, not to mention "female athletes can go **** themselves".
 
I think it's clear that a lot of people currently active in the thread very much care about what you have to say. Not agreeing isn't the same as not caring.

Ironically, it seems like it's mainly the other trans-activists here who are downplaying or ignoring what you have to say. After your recent statements about being biologically female, there were some attempts at a fringe reset (erasing all the arguments and conclusions so far and having a 'do-over' of the entire debate). But none of the allies seem willing to either repudiate or defend your position, or even acknowledge it at all.

Defending the bailey is sometimes a losing proposition.
 
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