Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Emily's Cat]

Ahh yes, the traditional feminist position that women should have to present their birth certificates in order to get employment.

Wild how much these people are willing to harm all women in order to spite trans women.

FFS, dude. Are you seriously arguing that people born and raise male, who feel that they have a mystical ephemeral "female essence" inside of their brains, should be easily ousting actual females with the experience of being female and being treated like females for their whole life?

WTF is wrong with you that you so casually decide that female representation in politics should be met by biological males?

Seriously. Would you consider it even remotely reasonable that white people should be allowed to usurp the positions of black people in representation, and count as "black" to demonstrate equitable representation? Do you think that able-bodied people should be allowed to park in the disabled spots if they identify as disabled... let alone represent the interests and needs of disabled people in policy formation?

Why the holy **** of all ***** do so many people feel fully qualified to just brush females aside and assume that men can take those roles and represent our interests just because they like to put on dresses and wear lipstick? Do you seriously think that "woman" is a goddamned costume? Do you really think that womanhood is sufficiently represented by a minstrel show playacting femininity?

No, no, It's fine. It's fine really. Women are under-represented in politics by a significant amount. Well, I suppose we should get more men in there to make sure it's "fair". **** me sideways.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then there's the question of whether or not she is trans. I'm fairly confident I mostly understand what she is. She's a biological male with a developmental abnormality that caused her to be mistaken for a female. Exactly what we call people like her is something that I'm sure some people think is very important.

We call that intersex. Which, contrary to a lot of propaganda, does NOT fall under the trans umbrella.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

FFS, dude. Are you seriously arguing that people born and raise male, who feel that they have a mystical ephemeral "female essence" inside of their brains, should be easily ousting actual females with the experience of being female and being treated like females for their whole life?

WTF is wrong with you that you so casually decide that female representation in politics should be met by biological males?

Seriously. Would you consider it even remotely reasonable that white people should be allowed to usurp the positions of black people in representation, and count as "black" to demonstrate equitable representation? Do you think that able-bodied people should be allowed to park in the disabled spots if they identify as disabled... let alone represent the interests and needs of disabled people in policy formation?

Why the holy **** of all ***** do so many people feel fully qualified to just brush females aside and assume that men can take those roles and represent our interests just because they like to put on dresses and wear lipstick? Do you seriously think that "woman" is a goddamned costume? Do you really think that womanhood is sufficiently represented by a minstrel show playacting femininity?

No, no, It's fine. It's fine really. Women are under-represented in politics by a significant amount. Well, I suppose we should get more men in there to make sure it's "fair". **** me sideways.

Why do you feel fully qualified to brush aside the voices of women actually running the rape crisis center?

On social media RCS doubled down tweeting, “Don’t let gender row obscure the need for changes to the way rape survivors are treated in Scotland.”

Sadly this is likely not the case. These radical transphobes would sooner see a women's crisis center shuttered than allow them to treat trans women with dignity and respect. The Women Defenders have logged on and are doing their best to sabotage the smooth running of a rape crisis center. You know, to help women or something.

The Labour Party’s All Women Shortlists are open to all women, including self-identifying trans women.

https://labour.org.uk/about/how-we-work/nec-statement-women-shortlists-womens-officers-minimum-quotas-women/

No wiggle room in this language. As far as the Labour party is concerned, trans women are women.

TERFs take another L. I'm sure there's some reactionary right wing political party that would be more amenable to this kind of trans bigotry.

 

[Meadmaker]

Ironically, I think that having been raised as a girl, Semenya probably has more standing to claim that as her gender identity than someone who was raised as a boy and decided later in life that they'd rather be a girl.

Caster Semenya is a woman the same way Bill Clinton is America's first black president: Obviously not, but also there's an argument to be made for the validity of lived experience.

When I think of Andraya Yarwood, the Connetticutt track star smashing regional track records, I absolutely say that "she" ought not be racing in the girls' meets.


When it comes to Caster Semenya, I have a lot more trouble saying yes or no, although I lean toward no. At any rate, the people who have to make the decision for real have made it, and I don't think it's an awful decision.

I don't actually like using hormone levels for eligibility criteria, but that's because I worry that doctors will prescribe hormone levels that are not medically appropriate in order for a would-be competitor to meet entry standards.

 

[Louden Wilde]

New review on Transwomen in sports published - open access here:
Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage’
Abstract
Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and their experienced gender identity. Accordingly, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) determined criteria by which a transgender woman may be eligible to compete in the female category, requiring total serum testosterone levels to be suppressed below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to and during competition. Whether this regulation removes the male performance advantage has not been scrutinized. Here, we review how differences in biological characteristics between biological males and females affect sporting performance and assess whether evidence exists to support the assumption that testosterone suppression in transgender women removes the male performance advantage and thus delivers fair and safe competition. We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10–50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.


Note - other androgens besides testosterone influence male development- primarily dihydrotestosterone

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's my own opinion that the paneil who interviewed Mridul Wadhwa knew perfectly well that he was a man, and due to a combination of desire for woke cookies and horror of being in any way "transphobic" they gave him the job anyway.

Reading some of the responses to the amendment passing is... actually frightening. I'm appalled that these people - especially people who hold office and leadership positions within parties - care so much more about the fact that a hypothetical transwoman won't be allowed to examine the intimate parts of a recently-raped female than they do about the actual raped female. The framing of the amendment as a "dog whistle" for transphobia is just so lacking in any kind of empathy and care for the victims of a horrible crime that I have a hard time wrapping my head around it.

This comic really kind of captures the essence of the situation for me:

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ironically, I think that having been raised as a girl, Semenya probably has more standing to claim that as her gender identity than someone who was raised as a boy and decided later in life that they'd rather be a girl.

Caster Semenya is a woman the same way Bill Clinton is America's first black president: Obviously not, but also there's an argument to be made for the validity of lived experience.

Oh no doubt. Her socialization and experiences are far more likely to be comparable to those of other females than that of a biological male raised male. I have zero hesitation referring to Semenya as "she" and treating her as such. Well, okay, except when it comes to sports. And that's not her fault at all, and I do feel sorry for her.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sadly this is likely not the case. These radical transphobes would sooner see a women's crisis center shuttered than allow them to treat trans women with dignity and respect. The Women Defenders have logged on and are doing their best to sabotage the smooth running of a rape crisis center. You know, to help women or something.

Holy ****. Do you understand that the only rape shelters that have been shut down have been SHUT DOWN BY TRANSACTIVISTS who can't bear the thought of females getting care without them being there to affirm their identities? They haven't even been shut down by transwomen who were actually denied access to them as victims - they were shut down by trans people and their rabid allies who felt that nailing rats to their doors and vandalizing a rape shelter with threats of violence and rape was perfectly acceptable ******* behavior!

It isn't biological women trying to get shelters closed.

No wiggle room in this language. As far as the Labour party is concerned, trans women are women.

Yes, I know. As far as the Labour Party is concerned, equal representation for "women" means less representation for females. Progress!

 

[theprestige]

Late dup.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Weirdest double post I've seen to date there...

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not okay with this trend of allowing males who identify as women to be counted as "female" in terms of political representation. It's frankly bollocks. Or perhaps literally bollocks.

Linky

The undermining of sex-parity rules once ensuring congruity in representation between the sexes has been trending around the globe.

On August 23, 2018, the United States Democratic National Committee (DNC) passed a charter allowing seats once reserved for women to be filled by men who identify as women or non-binary.

The United Kingdom’s Labour Party updated its rules on all-woman shortlists in May 2018. Men who identify as another ‘gender’ may now hold seats that were previously allotted to women. Lily Madigan, a teen boy known for making rape and blow job jokes on Twitter, was appointed to the role of Women’s Officer for a Labour Party chapter. Women who questioned the appointment of a boy who self-identifies as a woman to serve as women’s voice were successfully targeted by Mr Madigan for removal from their long-held political positions.

In Bangladesh Parliament, 50 of 350 seats had been reserved for women since 2010. In December 2018, the parliament saw the highest number of women to be directly elected to the Lower House. Less than two months after the historic election, it was announced that men who identify as transgender would be permitted to hold seats allotted to women.

ST and AGG and LJ - do you guys really, genuinely, feel that this is fair and just to females?

 

[theprestige]

Weirdest double post I've seen to date there...

The thread takes a long time to process new posts. So I hit Submit, and the spinny thing spins without end. Meanwhile, I go to another thread and post. Then *this* post gets rejected for being within 60 seconds of another post. Then I come back an hour later, realize this tab is still open, and hit Submit one more time.

Turns out, the original post had actually gone through.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not okay with this trend of allowing males who identify as women to be counted as "female" in terms of political representation. It's frankly bollocks. Or perhaps literally bollocks.

Linky


ST and AGG and LJ - do you guys really, genuinely, feel that this is fair and just to females?

Sure. Perhaps that is the greatest obvious difference between our two positions on the matter. The trans exclusionist view is one that there is a zero-sum relationship between trans rights and women's rights, so increasing trans rights means harming women.

Trans women are women and will be counted as such, transmen vice versa. This is good.

 

[Rolfe]

Transwomen are men, though. You can't be a transwoman unless you're a man. It's a pre-requisite. I mean, could I be a transwoman if I wanted to? No, obviously, because I'm not a man. QED.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Sure. Perhaps that is the greatest obvious difference between our two positions on the matter. The trans exclusionist view is one that there is a zero-sum relationship between trans rights and women's rights, so increasing trans rights means harming women.

Trans women are women and will be counted as such, transmen vice versa. This is good.

This (counting TW as W) seems intrinsically wrong to me in any area where females have been under-represented or anything having to do with reproductive issues.

More broadly, I agree this does seem like the big impasse. Many trans-activists seem unwilling to concede any meaningful difference between TWs and adult human females (the people formerly known as women ).

 

[theprestige]

Trans women are women and will be counted as such, transmen vice versa. This is good.

What about pregnant transmen? Are they counted as men, or as women?

 

[cullennz]

Trans women are women and will be counted as such, transmen vice versa. This is good.

Transwomen are men whose head thinks they should have been a women.

If they aren't annoying or horrible people I personally tend to treat them and address them as they wish to be treated.

But this has limits.

Like competing in sports in women's classes, or when it encroaches on another groups rights.

 

[Ziggurat]

Sure. Perhaps that is the greatest obvious difference between our two positions on the matter. The trans exclusionist view is one that there is a zero-sum relationship between trans rights and women's rights, so increasing trans rights means harming women.

If there is a quota for women representation, and the quota is only being met and not exceeded, then yes, as a matter of fact, it IS a zero-sum relationship to include transwomen under that quota. This is obvious.

 

[The Atheist]

Transwomen are men, though. You can't be a transwoman unless you're a man. It's a pre-requisite. I mean, could I be a transwoman if I wanted to? No, obviously, because I'm not a man. QED.

No, I'm sure you can be a transwoman.

The very heart of their position is that anyone can decide their gender, and if they deny you the right to choose from the infinite range of options, they're just hypocritical bigots.

 

[cullennz]

No, I'm sure you can be a transwoman.



The very heart of their position is that anyone can decide their gender, and if they deny you the right to choose from the infinite range of options, they're just hypocritical bigots.

There is that and also if you are a women and decide to be a trans man you apparently become a man.

So if you then decide it is no good and want to go back to being a women you would be a trans women, as for a while you were a man.