Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Meadmaker]

Still ignoring Caster Semenya I see.

No, I'm not.

You made a comment about ugly people. That doesn't relate directly to anything about Caster Semenya and the controversy over whether or not she should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is a cracker.

Women in Scotland risk having their rights virtue-signalled away

It's stuff like this that really gets me.

The position of RCS may have been informed by Mridul Wadhwa, a male prominent transgender rights activist who is a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre. When applying for the job, which would ordinarily be a post reserved for a woman, Wadhwa claimed to have not been asked for a gender recognition certificate (GRC) and that his employers didn’t know he was trans. Not only does Wadhwa have a key role within a women’s organisation, he also has political ambitions; in October he was shortlisted through an all-woman shortlist to stand as SNP candidate for Stirling in 2021, although ultimately he wasn’t selected. Wadhwa is also currently “Women’s Officer” for an SNP branch in Edinburgh.

So... These are positions intended for females, in order to support equality for women in the governance of the country, as well as to provide services for female victims of male violence.

And a male-bodied person is acquiring those positions? In what feasible way is a male-bodied person, raised as a male, able to represent the views and concerns of females? How the hell does this make sense in terms of women's equality?

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, I'm not.

You made a comment about ugly people. That doesn't relate directly to anything about Caster Semenya and the controversy over whether or not she should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Her not being conventionally attractive and being incorrectly called trans are certainly related.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's stuff like this that really gets me.



So... These are positions intended for females, in order to support equality for women in the governance of the country, as well as to provide services for female victims of male violence.

And a male-bodied person is acquiring those positions? In what feasible way is a male-bodied person, raised as a male, able to represent the views and concerns of females? How the hell does this make sense in terms of women's equality?

Well trans women are kind of also at high risk of such attacks, not that you clearly care about them or see them as women.

 

[theprestige]

Once again, the best woman for the job is a man.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ahh yes, the traditional feminist position that women should have to present their birth certificates in order to get employment.

Wild how much these people are willing to harm all women in order to spite trans women.

 

[Meadmaker]

Her not being conventionally attractive and being incorrectly called trans are certainly related.

Her "not being conventionally attractive" has absolutely nothing to do with her participation in sports. It's completely and totally irrelevant.

Then there's the question of whether or not she is trans. I'm fairly confident I mostly understand what she is. She's a biological male with a developmental abnormality that caused her to be mistaken for a female. Exactly what we call people like her is something that I'm sure some people think is very important.

At any rate, I don't know what you think I'm ignoring about her or what you think is important.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Ahh yes, the traditional feminist position that women should have to present their birth certificates in order to get employment.

Wild how much these people are willing to harm all women in order to spite trans women.

Detailed medical evidence to determine if they meet the employers definition of woman or not.

 

[Paul2]

Troubling and worrisome that discrimination being OK is not the default assumption? What exactly is it that troubles and worries you?

Is this a general rule with you? If I go to a female doctor and want to be checked for testicular cancer should she be allowed to say 'no way, I'm not dealing with balls'? Or is there something specific about waxing that makes it special?

Doctors deal with life and death situations, as opposed to waxing, which is discretionary. So fewer restrictions may well be necessary in medicine than waxing.

ETA: Also, a waxing professional of one sex dealing with the genitals of another sex gets into the issue of one sex viewing (or even handling) the genitals of another, which is something that Western society restricts generally.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Her "not being conventionally attractive" has absolutely nothing to do with her participation in sports. It's completely and totally irrelevant.

Then there's the question of whether or not she is trans. I'm fairly confident I mostly understand what she is. She's a biological male with a developmental abnormality that caused her to be mistaken for a female. Exactly what we call people like her is something that I'm sure some people think is very important.

At any rate, I don't know what you think I'm ignoring about her or what you think is important.

Her birth certificate says woman, the tests mostly advocated here say woman. At best you would get a result of not male but other.

Freaks clearly only belong in men's sports because reasons.

Of course it isn't like she was blowing away all these other peoples record to begin with and her appearance certainly played in well to the panic.

Nice to see that your definitions of male and female are as movable as any other of your goalposts.

 

[The Atheist]

It's stuff like this that really gets me.

Ditto, and it's why JK Rowling says what she says.

And gets labelled TERF for doing so.

And a male-bodied person is acquiring those positions? In what feasible way is a male-bodied person, raised as a male, able to represent the views and concerns of females? How the hell does this make sense in terms of women's equality?

It doesn't - it's just another example of male privilege, this time by putting on a pair of panties and some lippy.

Nice to see the thread has moved so far, through three whole threads, plus this one, which isn't too far off being closed off as well.

I think it proves there isn't an answer to satisfy everyone, but expecting women to bear the cost is absurd.

Once again, a few very squeaky wheels are spoiling it for everyone.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Doctors deal with life and death situations, as opposed to waxing, which is discretionary. So fewer restrictions may well be necessary in medicine than waxing.

And of course doctors are permitted all kinds of discrimination that waxing are allowed. I mean look at the hoops this guy has to jump through to get medical care.

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2020/11/living-with-hiv-when-lgbtq-rights-arent-guaranteed-ontare-calwise.html

 

[Paul2]

And of course doctors are permitted all kinds of discrimination that waxing are allowed. I mean look at the hoops this guy has to jump through to get medical care.

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2020/11/living-with-hiv-when-lgbtq-rights-arent-guaranteed-ontare-calwise.html

The position I laid out forbids this type of discrimination, precisely for the reasons I already stated: medicine is a life-or-death-situation.

What's your point?

 

[ponderingturtle]

The position I laid out forbids this type of discrimination, precisely for the reasons I already stated: medicine is a life-or-death-situation.

And medicine is not permited to discriminate in life or death situations, it is the regular care that they get to discriminate against people, hence why he could get doctors care at an ER or clinic.

 

[Rolfe]

It's also written by an activist, as a form of "comment is free" op-ed-style piece

(Unless NPOV journalists are in the habit of publicly thanking advocacy groups which they've quoted in their article....)

https://twitter.com/jo_bartosch/status/1338455386786029570

The very exemplar of argumentum ad hominem.

I would point out that when people investigate and research a topic in great depth, they often form an opinon about it and come to a decision as to which side of an argument they support. You'd prefer all articles to be written by journalists with such superficial acquaintance with their subject that they have no idea which side they favour?

 

[Paul2]

And medicine is not permited to discriminate in life or death situations, it is the regular care that they get to discriminate against people, hence why he could get doctors care at an ER or clinic.

My position doesn't say that doctors should be able to discriminate at all, if only because it's never certain that something is a life-or-death situation or not.

 

[Rolfe]

It's stuff like this that really gets me.

So... These are positions intended for females, in order to support equality for women in the governance of the country, as well as to provide services for female victims of male violence.

And a male-bodied person is acquiring those positions? In what feasible way is a male-bodied person, raised as a male, able to represent the views and concerns of females? How the hell does this make sense in terms of women's equality?

It's my own opinion that the paneil who interviewed Mridul Wadhwa knew perfectly well that he was a man, and due to a combination of desire for woke cookies and horror of being in any way "transphobic" they gave him the job anyway.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Her not being conventionally attractive and being incorrectly called trans are certainly related.

Semenya's not unattractive though. Not consistent with traditional female beauty, but she definitely falls into the real of attractiveness for a biological male.

No, she's not transgender apparently, and I do have sympathy for her. My understanding is that she had ambiguous genitalia as an infant, and was raised as a girl from a young age. But hormonally she is male, and that includes her testosterone levels, bone density, lung capacity, and muscle strength, which are far more representative of a male than of a female... Which makes sense given that she is biologically male.

It's unfortunate that an intersex person finds themselves in this position, with significant unwanted attention focused on them. It does, however, really highlight how often intersex gets coopted in discussion of gender identity.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well trans women are kind of also at high risk of such attacks, not that you clearly care about them or see them as women.

Sure sure, and white men who identify as black also face risks, and therefore are perfectly qualified to represent the interests of black people in the US.

And no, generally speaking, I don't see biological males who internally identify as women as actually being women. I do, however, see them as human beings deserving of respect and protection from prosecution.

I'll also challenge your claim of transwomen being at such a high risk or attack. I'd like to see some supporting information on that - specifically information that does not include transgender sex workers in Brazil.

 

[theprestige]

Ironically, I think that having been raised as a girl, Semenya probably has more standing to claim that as her gender identity than someone who was raised as a boy and decided later in life that they'd rather be a girl.

Caster Semenya is a woman the same way Bill Clinton is America's first black president: Obviously not, but also there's an argument to be made for the validity of lived experience.