Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[Mumbles]

Back to the discussion of today's white supremacist street gang, and those who write apologetics for them: DC police are investigating the Proud Boy's acts as possible hate crimes.

I'll note that hate crimes are generally difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, unless the people involved are more or less shouting applicable slurs while committing the crimes, or otherwise admit to it. That's honestly as it should be, but looking over the past year's behavior, I don't think there's any real reason to give them the benefit of the doubt outside the court room.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Proud Boy stabbed in self defense by victim of mob beating.

https://twitter.com/agrayphoto/status/1338012261399584769

Video clearly shows a lone man being backed into a wall, attacked, and chased by the large fascist mob. he is repeatedly struck in the head before producing a knife and stabbing at least one of his attackers.

Unclear on whether it is lawful to carry that, or any, knife in DC, but otherwise seems like clear-cut self-defense to me.

https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1338034242266091520

You know it's bad when even the NYPost says the fash went too far. They report 4 people were stabbed during the gang attack.

https://nypost.com/2020/12/13/one-person-stabbed-during-massive-proud-boys-brawl-in-dc/

**** around, find out. Fascists should expect to have force met with force.

 

[Mumbles]

Well, as far as I know, knifes with any utility purpose are legal, though not to use unlawfully. In other words, no switchblades, no criminal use of knives.

ANd immediate self-defense is legal, if you have good reason to believe you're in imminent threat of bodily harm - and "gang attack" *probably* falls in that category.

(In reality, the stabber may face criminal sanctions depending on why they're there, and the Proud Boys clearly should as well unless they were outright threatened with violence - but given that they're a violent racist street gang anyway, they'll likely have trouble if anyone seriously goes after them legally.)

 

[Thermal]

Proud Boy stabbed in self defense by victim of mob beating.

https://twitter.com/agrayphoto/status/1338012261399584769

Video clearly shows a lone man being backed into a wall, attacked, and chased by the large fascist mob. he is repeatedly struck in the head before producing a knife and stabbing at least one of his attackers.

As usual, video does not include run-up. Who started the confrontation before the cameras rolled?

Knife boy is front and center at 4 seconds into the video...with the knife already out in his right hand. So how do you or others determine that the mob wasn't reacting to an armed aggressor, a la Kyle Rittenhouse?

Unclear on whether it is lawful to carry that, or any, knife in DC, but otherwise seems like clear-cut self-defense to me.

Nothing unclear at all about it, bro. No carrying of deadly weapons in DC, no way, no how (some folding blades up to 3 inches are legal). Interestingly, "Current D.C. law does not recognize a self-defense or Constitutional right to carry a knife in the event of confrontation. Wooden v. U.S. 6 A.3d 833 (2010)." So looks like Zorro is in for a rough time should he surface. Wanna take bets he won't be filing charges?

https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/district-of-columbia/

You know it's bad when even the NYPost says the fash went too far. They report 4 people were stabbed during the gang attack.

https://nypost.com/2020/12/13/one-person-stabbed-during-massive-proud-boys-brawl-in-dc/

**** around, find out. Fascists should expect to have force met with force.

Again, the video starts with the knife out, and unarmed mob driving him away. Arguably. I think you have a long way to go to determine what happened here, instigation of violence wise.

And also, I'm not lobbying for a counter-narrative. I'm asking why this particular narrative is going unquestioned.

 

[Thermal]

I didn’t pluralize anything inappropriately. I referred to “church” singular in my first post and I didn’t event mention the banner.

Also, it has been multiple churches, as my subsequent posts quite clearly indicate.

Fair cop, I mixed up your post with the link's wording. My bad.

Where did I say I was incensed or do anything other than report what happened?

'Vandalizing a church'? That doesn't sound more like smashing stained glass windows and spray-painting?

They pulled down a temporary cardboard or cloth banner out on a signboard. That is not vandalizing a church any more than pulling up a Biden yard sign is vandalizing a house. Since you are so casual about vandalism, I don't get why this would be newsworthy to you. Like seeing a jaywalker, right?

My only question is why the response to this is so muted now, when earlier in the year it was being made to seem that riots and vandalism had us on the brink of social collapse.

Doesn't look muted to me. International reporting from some of the country's most prominent media. Although setting a banner on fire might not get quite the headlines compared to lighting an entire ******* city on fire.

What lies did I tell? Please be specific and provide quotes.

And while you’re doing that, maybe you can also address the question of why all of sudden no one seems to care about riots and vandalism anymore.

Speak for yourself. I care about all of them, all the more so when knives and guns come out. This is escalating in a bad way.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

As usual, video does not include run-up. Who started the confrontation before the cameras rolled?

Knife boy is front and center at 4 seconds into the video...with the knife already out in his right hand. So how do you or others determine that the mob wasn't reacting to an armed aggressor, a la Kyle Rittenhouse?



Nothing unclear at all about it, bro. No carrying of deadly weapons in DC, no way, no how (some folding blades up to 3 inches are legal). Interestingly, "Current D.C. law does not recognize a self-defense or Constitutional right to carry a knife in the event of confrontation. Wooden v. U.S. 6 A.3d 833 (2010)." So looks like Zorro is in for a rough time should he surface. Wanna take bets he won't be filing charges?

https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/district-of-columbia/



Again, the video starts with the knife out, and unarmed mob driving him away. Arguably. I think you have a long way to go to determine what happened here, instigation of violence wise.

And also, I'm not lobbying for a counter-narrative. I'm asking why this particular narrative is going unquestioned.

There are multiple videos of the event. One clearly shows the victim only draws the knife as he is attacked while trying to leave.

I don't see any reason why we have to feign ignorance about the commonly used tactics of uniformed fascists. Ganging up and attacking outnumbered protestors (or just people they misidentify as antifa or whatever) is a routine occurrence for the Proud Boys. Proud Boys routinely target peaceful protestors. In fact, they almost exclusively target people who are unable to defend themselves effectively because they are outnumbered and/or underarmed.

I have yet to see any claims that the victim of this attack had done anything violent to warrant such a response, and it seem pretty plain from the video that the goal of the fascists here is to either run off or severely injure the man.

I suspect you are right with regards to any legal problems the victim might have. Many of these big cities take a dim view of self-defense, especially armed self defense. Morally, I see no issue with someone using lethal force to prevent getting brutally beaten by a mob of drunken street fascists.

Reporting of the story makes it sound like he was arrested at the scene, but details still a bit unclear.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Magen Stevens has had her conditional bail revoked after videos of her taking part in a mob assault in DC reached the DA in her home state of Oregon.

Stevens received court permission to travel to DC, where she took part in a fascist gang assault on two passerbys. She is currently on pretrial release related to pepperspraying someone at another rally. She will now be awaiting trial in jail, which may take longer than usual given the situation with Covid.

https://twitter.com/Antifada161/status/1338643272520986625

It's the opinion of the ADA in Oregon that Stevens likely committed the crimes of disorderly conduct and riot while in DC.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

DC Proud Boy wearing Tshirt with Fasces symbol and "6MWE" printed on it.

6MWE is the nazi meme "6 million wasn't enough" in reference to the 6 million Jews killed during the Holocaust.

https://twitter.com/JohnBro11042548/status/1338715171561193472/photo/1

 

[johnny karate]

'Vandalizing a church'? That doesn't sound more like smashing stained glass windows and spray-painting?

Vandalism is the destruction of property. Church property was destroyed. It’s not even remotely controversial to call that vandalism.

They pulled down a temporary cardboard or cloth banner out on a signboard. That is not vandalizing a church any more than pulling up a Biden yard sign is vandalizing a house.

You are now minimizing the illegal actions of right wing criminals. Is this really the path you want to go down?

Since you are so casual about vandalism, I don't get why this would be newsworthy to you. Like seeing a jaywalker, right?

The D.C. Metro Police seem to be taking it pretty seriously.

So does the Mayor.

Perhaps you should inform them that they are overreacting.

Doesn't look muted to me. International reporting from some of the country's most prominent media.

Yes, I can barely keep up with the posts in this thread from all the people who condemned rioters and vandals earlier in the year rushing in to condemn these rioters and vandals now.

And let’s not forget the immediate and overwhelming response from law enforcement and the federal government. They really brought the hammer down.

Although setting a banner on fire might not get quite the headlines compared to lighting an entire ******* city on fire.

I like how you lecture me about my “casual” use of the term “vandalism” and now you’re trying to tell me that entire cities were set on fire.

 

[Thermal]

Vandalism is the destruction of property. Church property was destroyed. It’s not even remotely controversial to call that vandalism.

There it is. Moving the goalposts from 'vandalizing a church' to 'vandalizing church property. Is it so much to ask on a skeptics forum to call it what it is the first round?

You are now minimizing the illegal actions of right wing crimina6 uhls. Is this really the path you want to go down?

Not true. I am concerned about destroying any property, and particularly the signs of escalation. Not to mention the symbolism of burning, and what that implies. This is bad news. What confuses me is your feigned umbrage, since you are on record as saying vandalism is comparable to jaywalking. Care to explain why a mob pulling down a statue is a snoozer, but pulling down a banner is a travesty?

The D.C. Metro Police seem to be taking it pretty seriously.

So does the Mayor.

Perhaps you should inform them that they are overreacting.

They damn sure should be taking it seriously. I do. But you are the 'destruction of property is small potatoes' poster child here. Why aren't you explaining to police how they should be treating this harmless transgression like jaywalking and only deal with larger problems? I can put your thoughts on the matter up again if you need a refresher on what you think.

Yes, I can barely keep up with the posts in this thread from all the people who condemned rioters and vandals earlier in the year rushing in to condemn these rioters and vandals now.

And let’s not forget the immediate and overwhelming response from law enforcement and the federal government. They really brought the hammer down.

How much did the banner cost, versus the cost of police manpower? My guess is that vandalism in the $20 in damages range doesn't weigh heavily on their minds. Nor yours, since you think thousands of dollars in statuary damage is unworthy of note.

I like how you lecture me about my “casual” use of the term “vandalism” and now you’re trying to tell me that entire cities were set on fire.

Oh, I guess you require that every square foot of a city must be burning to say such a thing. Such accuracy. Much skepticism. My bad, again.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

DC Proud Boy wearing Tshirt with Fasces symbol and "6MWE" printed on it.

6MWE is the nazi meme "6 million wasn't enough" in reference to the 6 million Jews killed during the Holocaust.

https://twitter.com/JohnBro11042548/status/1338715171561193472/photo/1

is this better or worse than Holocaust Denial?

 

[Thermal]

is this better or worse than Holocaust Denial?

Imma go with horrifically worse.

 

[Mike!]

is this better or worse than Holocaust Denial?

Well it's clearly not a denial, so...

 

[ponderingturtle]

is this better or worse than Holocaust Denial?

Much more honest about its goals so it has that going for it.

 

[johnny karate]

There it is. Moving the goalposts from 'vandalizing a church' to 'vandalizing church property. Is it so much to ask on a skeptics forum to call it what it is the first round?

The sign that belonged to the church is church property. Damaging that property is vandalism. Officials from the churches, and D.C. police and city officials are treating it as such. As a matter of fact, the only person I see disputing it is you.

Not true. I am concerned about destroying any property, and particularly the signs of escalation. Not to mention the symbolism of burning, and what that implies. This is bad news. What confuses me is your feigned umbrage, since you are on record as saying vandalism is comparable to jaywalking. Care to explain why a mob pulling down a statue is a snoozer, but pulling down a banner is a travesty

Where did I say it was a travesty? Where did I express umbrage, feigned or otherwise?

I reported what happened and questioned why we’re not seeing the same type of response to it that we saw earlier in the year.

They damn sure should be taking it seriously. I do. But you are the 'destruction of property is small potatoes' poster child here. Why aren't you explaining to police how they should be treating this harmless transgression like jaywalking and only deal with larger problems? I can put your thoughts on the matter up again if you need a refresher on what you think.

Feel free. My thoughts haven’t changed.

How much did the banner cost, versus the cost of police manpower? My guess is that vandalism in the $20 in damages range doesn't weigh heavily on their minds. Nor yours, since you think thousands of dollars in statuary damage is unworthy of note.

I continue to not see your point. Again, I didn’t editorialize or express any outrage about this. I reported what happened and inquired about the response from those that did all the hand-wringing about this type of behavior when it wasn’t right wing mobs doing it.

Oh, I guess you require that every square foot of a city must be burning to say such a thing. Such accuracy. Much skepticism. My bad, again.

Yes, to say that an entire city is on fire, that entire city must be on fire. Otherwise, you’ve said something that is untrue.

 

[Thermal]

The sign that belonged to the church is church property. Damaging that property is vandalism. Officials from the churches, and D.C. police and city officials are treating it as such. As a matter of fact, the only person I see disputing it is you.



Where did I say it was a travesty? Where did I express umbrage, feigned or otherwise?

I reported what happened and questioned why we’re not seeing the same type of response to it that we saw earlier in the year.



Feel free. My thoughts haven’t changed.



I continue to not see your point. Again, I didn’t editorialize or express any outrage about this. I reported what happened and inquired about the response from those that did all the hand-wringing about this type of behavior when it wasn’t right wing mobs doing it.



Yes, to say that an entire city is on fire, that entire city must be on fire. Otherwise, you’ve said something that is untrue.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

You question why you don't see the same hand-wringing over a story that hadn't even been posted yet. Ok. I answer that in the earlier rioting, damages were in the millions of dollars. In this one, you present about a Jackson for a new banner, so I wouldn't expect great attention to the latter. I've had (and done) more damage on an average Mischief Night.

Anything else you want to discuss? Like how this is an eminent sign of proud boys getting more nasty? No, that's right; vandalism is small potatoes. So you say.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Generally speaking, Proud Boys vandalizing these black churches is probably not the most concerning element of their fascist rally in DC recently.

But it matters to brunch libs. Counter protestors are noisy and so gharish, they probably deserve, in some small way, to get the **** kicked out of them by fascists in their own city.

But it's hard to "both sides" a church getting attacked by a bunch of uniformed racists. In the world of civility politics, that's a big no-no.

I'm trying to meet these centrists halfway by giving a damn about property. Lord knows they won't bother to cause a fuss when it's Proud Boys regularly committing felony gang assaults on young activists.

 

[johnny karate]

You know, you really spilled your keystrokes like Onan here. You have a blank screen, fairly bursting with potential, and you waste it on pedantic drudgery? Let's see one of those Johnny karate hi-karate argumentative chops, now.

You question why you don't see the same hand-wringing over a story that hadn't even been posted yet. Ok. I answer that in the earlier rioting, damages were in the millions of dollars. In this one, you present about a Jackson for a new banner, so I wouldn't expect great attention to the latter. I've had (and done) more damage on an average Mischief Night.

Anything else you want to discuss? Like how this is an eminent sign of proud boys getting more nasty? No, that's right; vandalism is small potatoes. So you say.

Great, thanks for sharing your point of view.

 

[dudalb]

they prefer to be called Oathkeepers these days.

And your proof that the National Guard is made up of Oathkeepers is....

 

[dudalb]

Generally speaking, Proud Boys vandalizing these black churches is probably not the most concerning element of their fascist rally in DC recently.

But it matters to brunch libs. Counter protestors are noisy and so gharish, they probably deserve, in some small way, to get the **** kicked out of them by fascists in their own city.

But it's hard to "both sides" a church getting attacked by a bunch of uniformed racists. In the world of civility politics, that's a big no-no.

I'm trying to meet these centrists halfway by giving a damn about property. Lord knows they won't bother to cause a fuss when it's Proud Boys regularly committing felony gang assaults on young activists.

Nice to see your contempt for centrists and moderates is still alive.
A lot more of us in the US then hard core "Progressives".