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Cont: 2020 Presidential Election part 3

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Trump tweets

AND I WON THE ELECTION. VOTER FRAUD ALL OVER THE COUNTRY!

Wrong! At first they voted against because there were far more VOTES than PEOPLE (Sad!). Then they were threatened, screamed at and viciously harassed, and were FORCED to change their vote, but then REFUSED, as American patriots, to sign the documents. 71% MESS. Don’t Harass!
Quote Tweet

Adam Brewster
@adam_brew
BREAKING: The Wayne County Board of Canvassers has just unanimously voted to certify the results of the election & called on Michigan SOS Jocelyn Benson to conduct an audit of the unexplained precincts in Wayne County that did not match.
 
Trump tweets

AND I WON THE ELECTION. VOTER FRAUD ALL OVER THE COUNTRY!

Wrong! At first they voted against because there were far more VOTES than PEOPLE (Sad!). Then they were threatened, screamed at and viciously harassed, and were FORCED to change their vote, but then REFUSED, as American patriots, to sign the documents. 71% MESS. Don’t Harass!
Quote Tweet

Adam Brewster
@adam_brew
BREAKING: The Wayne County Board of Canvassers has just unanimously voted to certify the results of the election & called on Michigan SOS Jocelyn Benson to conduct an audit of the unexplained precincts in Wayne County that did not match.

Jeezus wept this is getting tiresome.
 
Half the country is convinced that there is voter fraud, and half the country is convinced that Trump is involved in a coup.

In the spirit of "facts matter" I want to take issue with this.

Does half the country believe that there is voter fraud? I don't think so. I think at least half of the Republican half believes that there is voter fraud. So about 1/4 of the country believes it. These people actually believe that. They have been encouraged to believe it by their President, and by a large number of elected officials who have supported his stance. In most cases, it is tacit support. Republican elected officials won't acknowledge Biden's victory. Only a few have actually lent affirmative support to Trump's allegations.

It's very unfortunate that the GOP leaders won't actually affirm reality, but it is what it is.

Moving on to the other half, I think almost no one believes Trump is engaged in a coup. Coups don't use lawyers as their primary weapon. He is simply being an ass, and causing trouble for the country.

For the people who do believe that he is engaged in a coup, once again Donald Trump's own words have encouraged them to believe it. Prior to the election he refused to say that he would step down if defeated. I understand that people sometimes get far too bent out of shape about Trump's comments, but that particular one is more than just some offhand comment. The phrase "peaceful transfer of power" has a meaning beyond just its literal sense. People who understand history and politics grasp that throughout much of history, the default form of power transfer was not peaceful at all. The voluntary relinquishing of power in response to the will of the people expressed in an election is something that is relatively new to the world, but is, above everything, key to maintaining Democracy.

When Donald Trump refuses to go along with saying he will participate in that, people are rightfully alarmed. Some people will take his words literally, and those people might actually believe he is engaged in a coup. Can you actually blame them for believing that? He has said he would do it. Even for those of us who do not take him literally, though, his words are chilling. They do demonstrate that he does not actually grasp the fundamental principles of democracy, and I do not think that's an exaggeration. Of course, he understands the rules and the laws, and knows that elections are the means by which leaders are installed in office, but he clearly doesn't grasp the deeper significance of democracy as an idea.

Based on that, I do not conclude that he is engaged in a coup, but I think it is fair to say, watching his behavior over four years, and specifically since the election, that the only thing that keeps him from doing so is the knowledge that it will not succeed. I don't think he would have any moral qualms about it at all. Indeed, I'm fairly confident he wouldn't, because he probably genuinely believes that he won the election. He could easily rationalize that a coup would be justified, if he thought he could get away with it.

So, I reject your characterization of the state of the country's beliefs. Most people do not believe there has been election fraud, but far too many believe it, and many more of the leaders will not publicly denounce that belief. Meanwhile, very few people believe he is engaged in a coup, but I think the evidence suggests that he would be, if he thought he could get away with it.
 
Trump tweets

AND I WON THE ELECTION. VOTER FRAUD ALL OVER THE COUNTRY!

Wrong! At first they voted against because there were far more VOTES than PEOPLE (Sad!). Then they were threatened, screamed at and viciously harassed, and were FORCED to change their vote, but then REFUSED, as American patriots, to sign the documents. 71% MESS. Don’t Harass!
Quote Tweet

Adam Brewster
@adam_brew
BREAKING: The Wayne County Board of Canvassers has just unanimously voted to certify the results of the election & called on Michigan SOS Jocelyn Benson to conduct an audit of the unexplained precincts in Wayne County that did not match.
Wayne County has basically abdicated.

This amounts to "here's our number, if you want a different number, count it yourself."
 
Okay, I know I'm going to get stupid crap about "bothsides" stuff, and a bunch of people are just going to dismiss anything I say out of hand because it challenges their perception.

But I am really pretty appalled that self-styled skeptics are completely blind to the similarities at play here.
That sounds like a recipe for remaining woefully misinformed.

For instance:
2016 Election:
Trump can't win this election! He can only win by cheating - with the help of evil foreign interests! Trump is actively and purposefully conspiring with Russia! Members of Trump's team are active foreign assets! Everything they do is corrupt! We need to investigate every single possible angle of Trump and everyone on his team to see if we can find anything at all to support the allegation of him colluding with Russia to win the election!
The degree to which most of this has been proven renders your post fact-challenged in the extreme. Please pass on my kind regards to the rest of the Van Winkle family.
 
Half the country is convinced that there is voter fraud, and half the country is convinced that Trump is involved in a coup. Both sides of that are, in my opinion, dumb and panicky.
It's not that he is involved in a coup, but his actions and words make it unclear whether he might attempt it, something that we've never had cause to consider before in the entire history of the country. That makes one sit up and take notice, and be prepared for the worst. What has Trump done to make one think, "No, this line is something he would never cross?"
 
It's not that he is involved in a coup, but his actions and words make it unclear whether he might attempt it, something that we've never had cause to consider before in the entire history of the country. That makes one sit up and take notice, and be prepared for the worst. What has Trump done to make one think, "No, this line is something he would never cross?"

Not only that, but even if he really wouldn't, he might be incompetent enough to do it accidentally.

Hans
 
It's not that he is involved in a coup, but his actions and words make it unclear whether he might attempt it, something that we've never had cause to consider before in the entire history of the country. That makes one sit up and take notice, and be prepared for the worst. What has Trump done to make one think, "No, this line is something he would never cross?"

I vaguely remember some Fox talking heads complaining that Obama was trying to be a dictator for life, despite no evidence at all for that assertion.

Now we have Trump flat out saying that he won't abide by the election results and then acting in accordance with his statements, and we are all told to calm down and stop being so dramatic about the constitutional implications of his temper tantrum.

******* Bizarro World.
 
trump Tweets

In Detroit, there are FAR MORE VOTES THAN PEOPLE. Nothing can be done to cure that giant scam. I win Michigan!

“The numbers have not improved, it is still 71% out of balance”, stated Wayne County, Michigan, Canvassers. “There is widespread irregularities in poll numbers.” There are “more votes than people”. The two harassed patriot Canvassers refuse to sign the papers!

THEY WOULD’NT LET REPUBLICAN POLL WATCHERS INTO THE COUNTING ROOMS. UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!

The Georgia recount is a joke and is being done UNDER PROTEST. Even though thousands of fraudulent votes have been found, the real number is in matching signatures. Governor must open up the unconstitutional Consent Decree and call in the Legislature!
 
Wayne County has basically abdicated.

This amounts to "here's our number, if you want a different number, count it yourself."

Yeah, and one of the GOPpers was shown to have a whole host of utterly rancid racist tweets in his past. So he wasn’t so keen on jumping on a grenade for Trump.
 
Apparently, according to Trump

The Great State of Michigan, with votes being far greater than the number of people who voted, cannot certify the election. The Democrats cheated big time, and got caught. A Republican WIN!
 
trump Tweets

In Detroit, there are FAR MORE VOTES THAN PEOPLE. Nothing can be done to cure that giant scam. I win Michigan!

“The numbers have not improved, it is still 71% out of balance”, stated Wayne County, Michigan, Canvassers. “There is widespread irregularities in poll numbers.” There are “more votes than people”. The two harassed patriot Canvassers refuse to sign the papers!

THEY WOULD’NT LET REPUBLICAN POLL WATCHERS INTO THE COUNTING ROOMS. UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!

The Georgia recount is a joke and is being done UNDER PROTEST. Even though thousands of fraudulent votes have been found, the real number is in matching signatures. Governor must open up the unconstitutional Consent Decree and call in the Legislature!

Is this Trump asking for that thing that SG told us Trump wasn't asking for?
 
Maybe someone could kidnap Trump in his sleep and put him in a presidential version of the Truman Show.
 
trump Tweets

In Detroit, there are FAR MORE VOTES THAN PEOPLE. Nothing can be done to cure that giant scam. I win Michigan!

“The numbers have not improved, it is still 71% out of balance”, stated Wayne County, Michigan, Canvassers. “There is widespread irregularities in poll numbers.” There are “more votes than people”. The two harassed patriot Canvassers refuse to sign the papers!

THEY WOULD’NT LET REPUBLICAN POLL WATCHERS INTO THE COUNTING ROOMS. UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!

The Georgia recount is a joke and is being done UNDER PROTEST. Even though thousands of fraudulent votes have been found, the real number is in matching signatures. Governor must open up the unconstitutional Consent Decree and call in the Legislature!

It's an excellent use of the fallacy of equivocation, whether intentional or not. Trump is just stupid enough that he might not understand what is alleged and he's devious enough to not give a damn.

The 71% isn't about the number of votes being larger than the population but the number of precincts whose numbers don't balance. The number of votes not balancing isn't clear to me (someone said it was a total discrepancy of 300-400 votes), but Trump is using that figure to suggest something much more nefarious. Of course.
 
I agree that the R's started it, but I think it was during Whitewater. (And Travelgate, and some sort of banking thing that was bogus, and all sorts of other investigations during the Clinton years.) That was the first fishing expedition investigation I remember. Maybe there were also some before that, but it seems that ever since then it has been one investigation after another.

ETA: I would not put Iran-Contra in the same category. I think that was a perfectly legitimate investigation.

Actually, beyond that up to now. Benghzi!! EmailGate!! PedophileGate!! All completely bogus. It seems like Trump tweets and HRC weekly. It's just nonstop BS.

I challenge Emily's Cat to come up with a similar list for the Dems.


It clearly all started with Watergategate.
 
It's an excellent use of the fallacy of equivocation, whether intentional or not. Trump is just stupid enough that he might not understand what is alleged and he's devious enough to not give a damn.

The 71% isn't about the number of votes being larger than the population but the number of precincts whose numbers don't balance. The number of votes not balancing isn't clear to me (someone said it was a total discrepancy of 300-400 votes), but Trump is using that figure to suggest something much more nefarious. Of course.

Anyone can look for themselves and see that Wayne County, Michigan, certified 878,102 votes out of 1.4 million registered to vote.
It's like still insisting Poll Watchers were excluded.

He surely doesn't believe what he is posting.
 
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