Cancel student loan debt?

[TragicMonkey]

If it's because it's mean to these people, and you pity them, then sure, they should have to do a couple tricks to earn their gift.

Perhaps the reason we have such problems with education in the first place is because people expect to get something for nothing and that the slightest hint of doing something productive in exchange is insulting to them! Working in exchange for money is kind of the point of getting the education in the first place, isn't it? Debt forgiveness is just not having to pay back the money owed, it's not a permanent dispensation from all social obligations.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Perhaps the reason we have such problems with education in the first place is because people expect to get something for nothing and that the slightest hint of doing something productive in exchange is insulting to them! Working in exchange for money is kind of the point of getting the education in the first place, isn't it? Debt forgiveness is just not having to pay back the money owed, it's not a permanent dispensation from all social obligations.

Every single person in this country is getting "something for nothing" all the time. That's living in a society. Unless you live in some an-cap hellscape, we all take advantage of public goods that we did not personally "earn" beyond existing and paying taxes.

I see no reason to single students out for special gratitude-signaling work. They did nothing wrong other than attempting to follow the path that everyone their whole life has been assuring them would lead to gainful employment. How dare these children believe their teachers, their parents, and their government when taking these loans.

It's time that we admit that the current system has failed, that many decent people are trapped in debt that far exceeds any personal failings, and that the whole system needs to be reformed, starting with immediate relief for those trapped in inescapable debt.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Perhaps the reason we have such problems with education in the first place is because people expect to get something for nothing and that the slightest hint of doing something productive in exchange is insulting to them! Working in exchange for money is kind of the point of getting the education in the first place, isn't it? Debt forgiveness is just not having to pay back the money owed, it's not a permanent dispensation from all social obligations.

That is why socialized universal medicine will never work. People shouldn't just expect to get some life saving treatment for free and not have an obligation to earn it. That is why american medical care is morally superior to all other countries.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Every single person in this country is getting "something for nothing" all the time. That's living in a society. Unless you live in some an-cap hellscape, we all take advantage of public goods that we did not personally "earn" beyond existing and paying taxes.

We all benefit, and we all contribute. You're omitting the second half of the equation. If we don't all contribute then there are no benefits to be had. If too many people extract benefits without contributing then everything ends.

I see no reason to single students out for special gratitude-signaling work.

I'm only "singling them out" because this thread is about them. I'm entirely against student loan forgiveness for people who never had student loans. Aren't you?

Part of being in a civilized society is contributing. It doesn't have to be exactly equal to what you benefit; indeed, ideally one should contribute more than one benefits so as to make up for those who cannot contribute. Note: "cannot" contribute, not equivalent to "think they are too good to contribute because work is beneath them".

If someone is too proud to pick up litter then surely they are too proud to accept debt relief at the public's expense. Pride is expensive.

 

[TragicMonkey]

That is why socialized universal medicine will never work. People shouldn't just expect to get some life saving treatment for free and not have an obligation to earn it. That is why american medical care is morally superior to all other countries.

It's my understanding that socialized medicine, even in the self-congratulatory superior nations, is actually paid for by taxing the entire public. Everyone contributes, everyone benefits.

Or are your doctors, nurses, and medical staff slaves? And the supplies and resources used seized from the suppliers without compensation?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Regardless of the worth of the thing the debt was for, I think it's reasonable that people getting debt forgiveness from society should do something in exchange that benefits that society. Community service, for example. It needn't be a dollar-for-dollar accounting, but even if it's only a minimal gesture I think it should be made. People get mad when they perceive other people "getting something for nothing", I think a token of appreciation would go a long way to smoothing the sell. It's just good manners.

I think that this is generally a good idea, but the implementation is tough. I'd rather we simply paid people a living wage to do **** work that needs to be done, or that we would like to have done. I would be really happy if it was stupid easy for a ex-con or high school dropout to get an easy job picking up trash along the side of the freeway or cleaning toilets for local government offices for a decent amount of money. I would be even happier if it came with retirement benefits and health benefits. If you can't afford your student loans, then get such a job and then you can start to make some payments.

Instead we contract out such things to third parties who hire hourly workers at minimum wage on a part time basis and all we get out of the deal is more pressure for illegal labor, more people on welfare, more people unemployed, and more people on medicaid because the minimum wage sucks. Joy, the city saved $250,000 a year on litter cleanup by outsourcing, but it ends up costing the taxpayer $500,000 elsewhere. Fiscal conservatives for the WIN!

 

[rdwight]

Higher earnings workers? This not necessarily true. Much of the student debt that has been accrued is by lower income individuals who attended community colleges and for profit schools.

Source? Because according to the Urban Institute -

According to our updated analysis of the Survey of Consumer Finances for 2016 (the best available data, though imperfect), the most affluent households—the top 25 percent of households with the highest earnings—held 34 percent of all outstanding education debt. The top 10 percent of households, with incomes of $173,000 or higher, held 11 percent of the debt.

This debt represents loans for both current and past students and is a combination of students borrowing for their own education and parents or grandparents borrowing to help their children or grandchildren pay for college.

Households in the lowest income quartile (with household incomes of $27,000 or less) hold only 12 percent of outstanding education debt. In other words, education debt is disproportionately concentrated among the well off.

I haven't seen any studies that don't share this breakdown. If the plan was targeted at helping those 12 percent (190 billion or so) then I could at least understand it.

 

[Elvis666]

Having paid all my student loans and having funded my kids' school, I find the most distasteful part of this conversation is that the government is willing to hand out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans to someone with no credit who has proven that they are not the best recipient of such largess by not getting into a competitive state school.

Thank you. You put this into words much more clearly than I could.

 

[Meadmaker]

Maybe the real problem, as if there was just one, real, problem, is that people think of government money as pretty much free. Heck, I'm darned near convinced myself. After being a "deficit hawk" my whole life, but seeing that grand spending on a gigantic scale doesn't seem to have destroyed us yet, maybe it's true.

Forgive the loans and the only thing that happens is that government loses some revenue, and so has to borrow more money to fund programs. Apparently there's no real limit to that.

I think the only reason student debt forgiveness is taken seriously is that people don't see the connection between their own money and the debt forgiveness. If it doesn't affect me, why should I care that someone else's government loan gets forgiven?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

We all benefit, and we all contribute. You're omitting the second half of the equation. If we don't all contribute then there are no benefits to be had. If too many people extract benefits without contributing then everything ends.




I'm only "singling them out" because this thread is about them. I'm entirely against student loan forgiveness for people who never had student loans. Aren't you?

Part of being in a civilized society is contributing. It doesn't have to be exactly equal to what you benefit; indeed, ideally one should contribute more than one benefits so as to make up for those who cannot contribute. Note: "cannot" contribute, not equivalent to "think they are too good to contribute because work is beneath them".

If someone is too proud to pick up litter then surely they are too proud to accept debt relief at the public's expense. Pride is expensive.

Looking forward to everyone else being ordered to compulsory work based on their particular consumption of public goods. Surely you don't just intend for students to have this special privilege to show their gratitude, right?

Anyone that drives on public roads should be compelled to work on a tarring crew to contribute. Everyone that consumes medical care on Medicaid or Medicare should be compelled to clean bed pans to contribute. Anyone who ever needs police, fire, or ems crews should have give their labor in a show of gratitude. If paying taxes alone isn't good enough for students, it surely must not be good enough for everyone else who consumes public goods. I trust you're not trying to deprive everyone else of this great honor to show gratitude.

Or, you know, they can all just pay taxes as part of the collective. Trying to single out groups that need to demonstrate their gratitude strikes me as needlessly petty and divisive. These students are members of our society just like everyone else and are due the dignity and support of any other citizen.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Maybe the real problem, as if there was just one, real, problem, is that people think of government money as pretty much free. Heck, I'm darned near convinced myself. After being a "deficit hawk" my whole life, but seeing that grand spending on a gigantic scale doesn't seem to have destroyed us yet, maybe it's true.

Forgive the loans and the only thing that happens is that government loses some revenue, and so has to borrow more money to fund programs. Apparently there's no real limit to that.

I think the only reason student debt forgiveness is taken seriously is that people don't see the connection between their own money and the debt forgiveness. If it doesn't affect me, why should I care that someone else's government loan gets forgiven?

No, it's quite clearly only free when cutting taxes for the wealthy or starting multi-decade wars with no chance of success. When it comes to social spending that will pay for itself many times over, every penny must be scrutinized.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's my understanding that socialized medicine, even in the self-congratulatory superior nations, is actually paid for by taxing the entire public. Everyone contributes, everyone benefits.

They also tend to have free or very inexpensive higher education something that clearly fails for them as well.

Here is the thing, student loans often have relatively high interest rates, can't be dealt with in bankruptcy and are backed by the government. A real free money investment on the part of those who issue them.

And few to no one is talking about wholesale writing off the debts with out any compensation.

Or are your doctors, nurses, and medical staff slaves? And the supplies and resources used seized from the suppliers without compensation?

Yes that really is how medical care works in the US thank you for pointing that out. We need to clearly get rid of those silly laws forcing medical staff to treat patients with out regard to their ability to pay. You have found the main immorality in american healthcare right there. Letting the poor die is the more moral solution.

 

[Meadmaker]

No, it's quite clearly only free when cutting taxes for the wealthy or starting multi-decade wars with no chance of success. When it comes to social spending that will pay for itself many times over, every penny must be scrutinized.

It's true. Our spending is free, but theirs is pickpocketting the American people.

In the case of loan forgiveness though, I can't see how it could possibly fall into the category of paying for itself many times over. The loan recipients don't seem to be able to pay it one time over, much less many times.

I suppose you could say that the success stories from student loans paid their own loans back, plus made a bunch of extra money on which they paid taxes, thus paying back the government many times over, enough to fund the ones who are defaulting now.


In the serious vein, the more I think about it, the more I think that allowing people to discharge the debt via bankruptcy is the way to go. Those people who can't pay it back don't have to. Those people for whom their loan was a profitable investment can continue to pay it back.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I haven't seen any studies that don't share this breakdown. If the plan was targeted at helping those 12 percent (190 billion or so) then I could at least understand it.

And then you have someone who is poor and makes the mistake of thinking an ivy league education is a ticket to the middle class and racks up a cool hundred thousand dollars in education debt for a masters degree in neuro science.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Or, you know, they can all just pay taxes as part of the collective. Trying to single out groups that need to demonstrate their gratitude strikes me as needlessly petty and divisive. These students are members of our society just like everyone else and are due the dignity and support of any other citizen.

Oh for the love of...

THEY'RE THE ONES ASKING FOR MONEY! How is anyone doing any signling out?

Jesus Christ you're like a parody of a parody of socialism at this point.


"Give me free money with no strings attached and don't expect me to pay it back."

"No."

"OMG STOP SINGLING ME OUT AND ASKING ME TO GROVEL BEFORE YOU! I HAVE MY DIGNITY SIR!"


Oh and let me make a psychic prediction here. Your response will be a random rant about super rich people with 27 yachts that will have nothing to do with anything anyone has said.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Oh for the love of...

THEY'RE THE ONES ASKING FOR MONEY! How is anyone doing any signling out?

Jesus Christ you're like a parody of a parody of socialism at this point.


"Give me free money with no strings attached and don't expect me to pay it back."

"No."

"OMG STOP SINGLING ME OUT AND ASKING ME TO GROVEL BEFORE YOU! I HAVE MY DIGNITY SIR!"


Oh and let me make a psychic prediction here. Your response will be a random rant about super rich people with 27 yachts that will have nothing to do with anything anyone has said.

They are as bad as those behind that SCHIP law. Lazy good for nothings.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Oh for the love of...

THEY'RE THE ONES ASKING FOR MONEY! How is anyone doing any signling out?

Jesus Christ you're like a parody of a parody of socialism at this point.


"Give me free money with no strings attached and don't expect me to pay it back."

"No."

"OMG STOP SINGLING ME OUT AND ASKING ME TO GROVEL BEFORE YOU! I HAVE MY DIGNITY SIR!"


Oh and let me make a psychic prediction here. Your response will be a random rant about super rich people with 27 yachts that will have nothing to do with anything anyone has said.

Sure, they're asking for the money. Just like the people asking for relief from medical debt, or the people asking for universal healthcare, or the people asking for increased minimum wage, or hungry children who want food, or poor people who want homes, wage guarantees during emergencies, or anything else.

The government literally exists to allocate public resources for the public good. It may seem odd because our system so rarely actually does much to actually improve the material conditions of ordinary people, but we shouldn't be treating the government actually caring about the public good as some Jubilee. I know it seems odd because our society is increasingly becoming an austerity hellscape where people live and die in service to fantasies of rugged individualism, but try to imagine a government that actually prioritized the public good when it came to spending money.

Please remind me the last time any wealthy person had to do anything at all to justify their massive handouts. Decades of redistributive policies to further enrich the wealthy and I don't think a single soda can or cigarette butt has been picked up in community service. Where's the gratitude?

The recent round of tax cuts for the wealthy cost 300 billion more than student loan forgiveness would cost. This has nothing to do with gratitude and everything to do with who wields power in our system.

Asking is a mistake. Working people need to be in a position to demand it. It's a long term project.

 

[TragicMonkey]

They also tend to have free or very inexpensive higher education something that clearly fails for them as well.

Here is the thing, student loans often have relatively high interest rates, can't be dealt with in bankruptcy and are backed by the government. A real free money investment on the part of those who issue them.

And few to no one is talking about wholesale writing off the debts with out any compensation.



Yes that really is how medical care works in the US thank you for pointing that out. We need to clearly get rid of those silly laws forcing medical staff to treat patients with out regard to their ability to pay. You have found the main immorality in american healthcare right there. Letting the poor die is the more moral solution.

For the love of Christ, not everything is about everything. I'm in favor of education reform. (And universal, state-paid healthcare, by the way. Which is not relevant to this thread.) The big controversial thing I'm suggesting is that maybe some people deriving an extra bonus benefit from the collective ought to make an extra bonus effort as a nice gesture. How the effing eff that turns into being "kill the poors" is clearly an internet thing.

If you have nothing to contribute beyond leaping into a conversation in progress to start hurling hyperbolic nonsense then perhaps you ought to either a) read all the posts already made in that thread or b) just don't contribute. You can be one of those free riders who benefits but doesn't contribute-- I'm willing to extend a special dispensation if this is the nature of your contributions.

 

[crescent]

It's true. Our spending is free, but theirs is pickpocketting the American people.

In the case of loan forgiveness though, I can't see how it could possibly fall into the category of paying for itself many times over. The loan recipients don't seem to be able to pay it one time over, much less many times.

I suppose you could say that the success stories from student loans paid their own loans back, plus made a bunch of extra money on which they paid taxes, thus paying back the government many times over, enough to fund the ones who are defaulting now.


In the serious vein, the more I think about it, the more I think that allowing people to discharge the debt via bankruptcy is the way to go. Those people who can't pay it back don't have to. Those people for whom their loan was a profitable investment can continue to pay it back.

You have a lot of good points here.

One thing to think about is that most people pay off their loans okay - but others are dissuaded from secondary education by the cost. We're really just covering those who cannot pay, with the hopes that more poor people are now confident to try for college, knowing they have less risk of financial ruin for doing so. This is an investment in our society at the core level - its people.

The other key thing - this is the third time I've mentioned this - is that we don't know what it takes (or will take) to qualify for loan forgiveness. It seems like there is an expectation that the borrower make the effort to pay it back, at least for a decade or so. This may be akin to bankruptcy, implemented only for those who have no assets and who have already tried everything else.

And then you have someone who is poor and makes the mistake of thinking an ivy league education is a ticket to the middle class and racks up a cool hundred thousand dollars in education debt for a masters degree in neuro science.

And those loans would not be covered under Biden's plan. Government loans (Ford and Stafford and others I probably don't know about) at State or local government schools only. No Ivy league, no expensive private schools, no fly-by-night teleschools like those advertised on late-night TV.

I would hope that this could cover trade schools as well. I mean, some of it obviously does on some places, as Trade Schools are often embedded in Community Colleges, and those are covered. I'm not sure if covered under the loan forgiveness, but covered under the free tuition for lower income people that's mentioned in the seventh post of this thread. Unfortunately That aspect of trade school/community college seems to vary pretty wildly from state to state, as best I can tell.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Sure, they're asking for the money. Just like the people asking for relief from medical debt, or the people asking for universal healthcare, or the people asking for increased minimum wage, or hungry children who want food, or poor people who want homes, wage guarantees during emergencies, or anything else.

It's not "just like" those people though: a postsecondary degree is not a necessity, unlike food, shelter, and medicine. Some people think it's a necessity (which is one of the problems) but it's not. Tiffany-Amber's getting a B.A. in Communications is not equivalent to Mrs Jones getting a heart valve replacement.

The government literally exists to allocate public resources for the public good.

I agree. And it's able to do this because each individual that makes up that public contributes to the whole. If they are able to, anyway. Like a sort of...social contract, if you can imagine such a thing.

Please remind me the last time any wealthy person had to do anything at all to justify their massive handouts. Decades of redistributive policies to further enrich the wealthy and I don't think a single soda can or cigarette butt has been picked up in community service. Where's the gratitude?

I agree, the wealthy get too much, it's disproportionate to their contribution. But I don't see that that problem has to be fixed before education financing reform can be attempted. I can splint your broken arm even if I can't treat your cancer. Solving one problem at a time works better, generally, than attempting to solve all problems simultaneously.