Cancel student loan debt?

[TragicMonkey]

What other segments of society should be targeted for compulsory labor to express gratitude to society? Should the elderly on Medicare be forced into caring for children and infants? Social Security beneficiaries? How about school children who receive K-12 education? Maybe we should bring back work houses for those that receive SNAP benefits. What you're suggesting is a major departure for how we generally view public spending which is not conditioned on citizens showing gratitude through labor.

Not all labor is equal. Compulsory labor has gone by many names over the ages, none of them considered good. I trust you can see the difference between the value of freely chosen labor and state mandated indentured servitude reserved for indebted Americans.

The point about free education is that it's beneficial for society as a whole. It's not a gift for these people solely out of kindness. It's a rising tide that generally benefits the entire nation.

I was talking about people who are getting (if this happens) their student loans forgiven. Jesus Christ, you really think that asking anything in exchange is too much? Society must eat those debts without the slightest thing in exchange? It's "indentured servitude" to ask for a little light community service?

If you were in charge of dispensing public funds I'd apply for a billion dollar grant. For nothing. And you wouldn't demand anything in exchange, of course. Because that would be...what, Nazis? Slavery?

 

[rdwight]

How exactly does it do that? This isn't a zero sum game. I don't see how helping college students hurts anyone.

It removes the obligation of debt from those most capable of paying it back, thus adding them into the market of things like homebuying that those who did not have this windfall will now have to compete with. Those that went to trade schools or have private debt will continue their burden and now have a 50k lower bidding value to peers. Peers that by and large already have a bigger salary. I am sure you can come up with other ideas as well.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I was talking about people who are getting (if this happens) their student loans forgiven. Jesus Christ, you really think that asking anything in exchange is too much? Society must eat those debts without the slightest thing in exchange? It's "indentured servitude" to ask for a little light community service?

If you were in charge of dispensing public funds I'd apply for a billion dollar grant. For nothing. And you wouldn't demand anything in exchange, of course. Because that would be...what, Nazis? Slavery?

What is the reasoning for forgiving the debt? I suppose that really frames what response you expect.

If it's because it's mean to these people, and you pity them, then sure, they should have to do a couple tricks to earn their gift.

If it's because the debt burden is detrimental to our society and is putting a burden on our economy, then there's really no moral reasoning at play.

These people will pay back their debt by participating more vigorously in the economy. Free from inescapable debt, many of these people will repay by investing in their careers, participating more fully in the economy as a consumer, and make decisions that aren't inhibited by immediate, crushing debt.

Whether or not I'd grant your billion dollar grant would depend on whether or not I thought it was in the public good, not whether I expected you to be thankful for it. Outcomes, not attitudes.

 

[Meadmaker]

It doesn't solve the question of existing debt, but I really do like the idea of national service being an option to access higher education. Extending the idea of the benefit given to veterans, but to other kinds of service than military.

It was during the Clinton years. I don't remember how long it lasted. I think Bush ended the program.

 

[rdwight]

How exactly does it do that? This isn't a zero sum game. I don't see how helping college students hurts anyone.

[qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Em8dSApW8AAEr3_?format=jpg&name=small[/qimg]

(Via Twitter).

That is probably the worst example that is being shared around. They want the trolley moved for them and then immediately put back on track to roll over the class of 2022+. And then claim those behind (and in front but not mentioned, because, ya know, we'll fix that later) are being selfish if they don't celebrate their good luck.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That is probably the worst example that is being shared around. They want the trolley moved for them and then immediately put back on track to roll over the class of 2022+. And then claim those behind (and in front but not mentioned, because, ya know, we'll fix that later) are being selfish if they don't celebrate their good luck.

I'm trying to imagine the miniscule niche of people that support student debt relief that also don't want to reform our current system.

Dealing with the immediate damage is often the first step of a resolving a systematic problem.

 

[acbytesla]

That is probably the worst example that is being shared around. They want the trolley moved for them and then immediately put back on track to roll over the class of 2022+. And then claim those behind (and in front but not mentioned, because, ya know, we'll fix that later) are being selfish if they don't celebrate their good luck.

This simply is not true. You continue to assert without evidence that canceling student debt today hurts those that didn't have it canceled.

 

[rdwight]

I'm trying to imagine the miniscule niche of people that support student debt relief that also don't want to reform our current system.

Dealing with the immediate damage is often the first step of a resolving a systematic problem.

Yes, and those same people think that money is unlimited and that it will all come from "the rich". If they are so in favor of this, allow them to continue paying the debt they have willingly accepted, and that 1.7$ trillion in value can be reallocated to make public college education free for the next 25 years. I am sure the graduating class of 2021 is happy with that setup so the starting 2022 class will live worry free.

This simply is not true. You continue to assert without evidence that canceling student debt today hurts those that didn't have it canceled.

I need evidence to assert that higher earning workers being given 50k will cause competition and higher costs in a already competitive housing market? When I think on it more this might be another boomer and owner class handout. Instead of the loans being paid back to the government, there will be money flowing into retirement funds and homes, inflating both values for the baby boomer retirement that is incoming.

 

[theprestige]

Unless they die young, they pay through the course of their lives as a taxpayer.

This seems circular. Why do they need a loan? To get a college degree. Why do they need a college degree? To get a job. Why do they need a job? To earn money and pay taxes. Why do they need to pay taxes? To pay off their loan. Why do they need a loan?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This seems circular. Why do they need a loan? To get a college degree. Why do they need a college degree? To get a job. Why do they need a job? To earn money and pay taxes. Why do they need to pay taxes? To pay off their loan. Why do they need a loan?

Yes, the economy is circular. People contribute and withdraw from the public purse at various points in their lives. The purpose of the economy is to perpetuate itself while providing for the needs of the public.

We put money into education so children can meaningfully contribute to the economy as adults. It's preferable than having a bunch of poor, illiterate people that can't perform meaningfully valuable work for the entirety of their lives. It's almost as if investing money up front reaps rewards in the long run. This has the benefit of having a workforce of people that can actually provide the skilled labor that a modern economy needs to be competitive with the rest of the world.

I'm glad we're on the same page.

 

[cosmicaug]

It's not the nation's wealth, though.

That's arguable. Even the wealth derived from MLM scamming benefits from the existence of public services. It's not binary.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That's arguable. Even the wealth derived from MLM scamming benefits from the existence of public services. It's not binary.

I mean, it's not even arguable. When it comes to assessing the wealth of nations, economists include private capital. GDP isn't just what the government does. Business that occurs in this country's market is part of the nation's wealth, full stop.

Private wealth is very much on the table when it comes to policy about taxation and social spending.

 

[cosmicaug]

Clearly you're not being productive enough to pay off your debt to the people who invested in your productivity.

You are not being paid enough because you are not being productive and you define being productive as getting paid enough.

Cool!

 

[acbytesla]

I need evidence to assert that higher earning workers being given 50k will cause competition and higher costs in a already competitive housing market? When I think on it more this might be another boomer and owner class handout. Instead of the loans being paid back to the government, there will be money flowing into retirement funds and homes, inflating both values for the baby boomer retirement that is incoming.

Higher earnings workers? This not necessarily true. Much of the student debt that has been accrued is by lower income individuals who attended community colleges and for profit schools.

 

[theprestige]

I'm trying to imagine the miniscule niche of people that support student debt relief that also don't want to reform our current system.

Joe Biden?

Dealing with the immediate damage is often the first step of a resolving a systematic problem.

Yeah, but it shouldn't be the first step in planning the resolution.

I'd be much more in favor of student debt relief proposals if they were presented as an appendix to a comprehensive plan for systematic reform.

"The current system has screwed over a generation. Here's my plan to reform the system and give the next generation a better choice. And obviously we're going to rescue the current victims of the bad system."

Proposals to simply forgive the debt, without any serious discussion of reforming the system, is just bad governance. You'd think that after forty years of experience in national government, Joe Biden would know better than this.

 

[acbytesla]

Joe Biden?



Yeah, but it shouldn't be the first step in planning the resolution.

I'd be much more in favor of student debt relief proposals if they were presented as an appendix to a comprehensive plan for systematic reform.

"The current system has screwed over a generation. Here's my plan to reform the system and give the next generation a better choice. And obviously we're going to rescue the current victims of the bad system."

Proposals to simply forgive the debt, without any serious discussion of reforming the system, is just bad governance. You'd think that after forty years of experience in national government, Joe Biden would know better than this.

Except the GOP doesn't address the nation's problems. They do nothing. They don't compromise and it's damn clear they don't care to help anyone but their wealthy benefactors.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Having paid all my student loans and having funded my kids' school, I find the most distasteful part of this conversation is that the government is willing to hand out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans to someone with no credit who has proven that they are not the best recipient of such largess by not getting into a competitive state school.

I can fully get behind the government lending students the money required to cover in-state tuition at public schools and the minimal living expenses needed in their area. For the University of Texas that comes out to be $30k per year. Ohio State comes out pretty close. UC Berkley is at about $40k. Maryland was about $30k. (Hint: Search "cost of attendance" for any school and they have to have it laid out pretty clearly.) I think most states have at least one, if not many, high quality state schools that fall into that general range of cost for in-state tuition.

I fully support the government lending money to students who qualify to go to such schools on an in-state basis. But that should be the cap. If you want to go out of state or to a private school the loans provided by the tax payer should be capped at the amount of the closest local state school's in-state cost of attendance.

If you can't get into the local state school, then I really don't think the tax payer should be subsidizing your education at a more expensive private school or out of state tuition. You have not yet shown that further investment in your education will bear significant fruit. Go to community college (which should be nearly free, but I get that is a separate issue) and either prove that you are a better student than the current evidence provides or learn a good trade.

Further, much of this would be less of an issue if we had a higher minimum wage. There is no reason a history major or even a high school graduate should be working 40 hours a week and still be unable to put a roof over their heads and food on the table.

ETA: The typos throughout all of my posts are meant to prove that college education is overrated.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Joe Biden?



Yeah, but it shouldn't be the first step in planning the resolution.

I'd be much more in favor of student debt relief proposals if they were presented as an appendix to a comprehensive plan for systematic reform.

"The current system has screwed over a generation. Here's my plan to reform the system and give the next generation a better choice. And obviously we're going to rescue the current victims of the bad system."

Proposals to simply forgive the debt, without any serious discussion of reforming the system, is just bad governance. You'd think that after forty years of experience in national government, Joe Biden would know better than this.

Fair enough, this is exactly the kind of incoherence I've come to expect from the modern Democratic party. It's a strange party that occasionally recognizes the problems ailing our society, but is ideologically opposed to any of the real solutions that might address them, so you just get these incoherent half-measures and token gestures.

It's probably why reactionary politics are so appealing right now, if this is the best that is on offer.

 

[theprestige]

Student loans aren't loans, since they are state-guaranteed.
That cancels the risk part of an actual loan, making it just a mechanism for the State to push number around on the budget.

It doesn't cancel the risk, though. It just lays it off on the taxpayer, who's risking money on a government program that may or may not pay off. In this case, it's not paying off. But the risk doesn't go away just because the State pushes numbers around on a budget and says "there's no risk if there's no debt!"

 

[acbytesla]

Fair enough, this is exactly the kind of incoherence I've come to expect from the modern Democratic party. It's a strange party that occasionally recognizes the problems ailing our society, but is ideologically opposed to any of the real solutions that might address them, so you just get these incoherent half-measures and token gestures.

It's probably why reactionary politics are so appealing right now, if this is the best that is on offer.

Hey, I'm not in favor of canceling debt by EOs. That said, the GOP manifestly refuses to address any of the ills that face this country.

It's all laissez faire and let the markets and private enterprise solve everything all the while knowing it won't and can't. This is why over 600 house bills sit on McConnell's desk and never even get a hearing in the US Senate.