Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Another example: I like to watch SciShow on Youtube, but when they discuss issues of what is generally called Men's or Women's Health, the contortions of language they use to talk about them in perfectly gender neutral terms gets a bit much even for an anti-gender segregationist like me.

When talking about biology, just use terms such as "man/men" and "woman/women" as a shorthand for the biological sexes. It is perfectly fine; nobody feels insulted. If it may cause confusion, just say "biological man/woman" in the first paragraph to make clear that is what you are talking about.
Yes, this.
Context, in these cases, clarifies what the words mean. It's the linguistic gymnastics that makes me cringe.
Yes, in other contexts there are people who describe themselves as "women" or "men" for which it may not apply and people who would not describe themselves as such for which it may. Trying to come up with terms that seem more neutrally descriptive might seem more inclusive, but it is ultimately futile. No words mean exactly the same thing in all contexts.

I don't think there are many overzealous activists demanding this. I think it is more an example of businesses pretending to be trendy while not fully understanding the issues involved.

"Hello, fellow trans-allies."
My guess is that most trans/trans-activists are not demanding this. But it's hard for me to say as I am not personally acquainted with any trans people. As a result, most of my exposure is from the internet/YouTube and the "activists" who are more extreme tend to get noticed more. It's very hard to say what mainstream activist positions actually are.
 
I’ve gone over ~30 pages of the thread. People here have made some good points (e.g. Emily’s Cat); my apologies if I reiterate some of these. I think I bring a slightly different perspective than what I’ve seen here: I have a long background as an academic biologist (~21 years post PhD) with research foci in genetics/epigenetics, developmental/repro bio and comparative/ evolutionary bio + teaching in those areas. I moved to clinical genetics several years ago.

For definitional purposes, I’m going to start with the traditional definition of woman = adult human female. I had not thought much about these issues until earlier this year when the JKR controversy erupted. I was disturbed to see people on Twitter referring to sex as a spectrum and/or mutable within an individual, often in concert with the TWAW mantra. These folks often pointing to opinion pieces in Nature and Scientific American to justify these beliefs. Diving into it, I saw that people were conflating primary sex with sex development/secondary characteristics as well as sexuality and sexual identity.

I (foolishly) tried to point this out to some and came to realize that many were not interested in a discussion but apparently just to ‘pwn’ the TERFs and what they believe to be bigots. While there were certainly some of the latter (typically right-wing), there also appeared to be plenty of people with well-reasoned positions - Specifically a lot frustrated/angry women (I noted the prominent presence of lesbians - who seem to be particular target of trans-activist vitriol - and anti-female genital mutilation activists).


Among the oft repeated claims was that ‘female’ can’t be rigorously defined - the unspoken argument often being that if they could find a single exception to the definition I was using, then anyone could be female. I saw a well-put rejoinder on medium entitled An Open Letter to the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real (the gist being that these claims are disingenuous).


Most these folks are missing the bigger picture: Sex is originally and fundamentally about reproduction. Moreover, there is an obligate binary in mammalian reproduction: one oocyte and one sperm are required for normal development. It’s accepted that sex is the preferred mode of reproduction due to its ability to generate genetic diversity via novel allelic combinations.

I (& many other biologists) define the two reproductive classes that produce these two gamete types as the (only) two sexes. Note that this definition works across species, which is necessary to understand biology in a comparative and historical framework. This definition also makes extrapolation from other species to humans possible. For example, the identification of the SRY locus that triggers mammalian male development was discovered via pain-staking experiments in lab mice, and can illuminate sex differences in other areas where human experiments are not feasible.

There is overwhelming evidence that the process of human development into two sexes is homologous with the process that occurs in all other mammals. I bring this up to make the point that if one wishes to change the definition of what constitutes one of these classes in humans without extending it to other mammals, it is by definition special pleading.

Unfortunately, I think denial of the biology is real, and not a fringe position any more - e.g. the prominent ACLU lawyer Chase Strangio saying: "biological sex" was developed for the exclusive purpose of being weaponized against people. Some of the trans-activists do a ‘motte and bailey’ on this, but it seems to me to be an intensifying pattern to claim that biological sex is fuzzy/can be changed/unimportant (see the dubious phrase: sex ‘assigned’ at birth).

The bigger point that seems to me to be ignored is why females have been nearly ubiquitously oppressed: Females are the limiting factor in mammalian reproduction. They produce far fewer gametes and bear nearly all of the reproductive costs, including all of the prenatal expenditure (where embryos develop essentially as parasites). Evolutionary theory would suggest this is why males try to control female bodies and maximize female expenditure for their own offspring (see work on this by noted theorists Bob Trivers, David Haig, WD Hamilton et al.). For aficionados - the genes I studied for many years - so-called imprinted genes - are thought to have had their unique expression patterns emerge as a direct result of these parental conflicts.

Note that if females are relatively plentiful, it makes sense (short term) to have more male offspring to maximize reproductive fitness. I (not uniquely) think this is a likely hypothesis as to why sex-selective abortion, infanticide and neglect have led to ~100 million ‘missing women’ across Asia. Regardless, I agree with the many women who suggest that these large biological disparities in energy expenditure/commitment related to reproduction are intrinsic to their treatment. In fact, the only other group I can think of that likely will face intrinsic unfair treatment due to evolutionary pressures are certain groups of the disabled.

I understand that words may change meaning. However, changing the definition of word with a precise definition (women) that applies to the largest oppressed class of people (females) to a circular version against the wishes of those already involved seems ill-advised. I’d like a future where we try harder (worldwide) to equalize treatment of females (acknowledging intrinsic the female-male behavioral differences that lead to rape and violence by the latter) and reduce gender stereotypes/expectations.

I feel they (females) should have their own spaces, sports, and that positions should be set aside in areas where they are under-represented. To be clear, we (obviously) should not discriminate against anyone, but reconciling that with the push of (some) trans-activists that trans-women should be considered as identical to adult human females will be difficult. I hope there will be a more wide-spread nuanced discussion - changing the current tenor seems a prerequisite for such talks.

PS - as I was typing I this I see the focus shifting to sexual selection, which I agree is key.



But......

..... gender dysphoria (and associated transgender issues) has nothing whatsoever to do with biology (as a first-order issue, at least). Rather, it is entirely within the realms of psychiatry, psychology and sociology.

And that's why the world's medical experts in gender dysphoria are mental health professionals, not biologists.

Also, I think I'm seeing within this post an inability to separate biological sex from sociological gender. A transwoman, for example, is a biological male. She would not dispute the fact that she is a biological male. But gender-wise, she's a woman. And the reverse is true for transmen.


Anyhow, this thread now seems to have descended into some sort of entirely, uhmmm, *unrelated* discussion around abortion and so forth. Not so surprising I suppose. Carry on!
 
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But......
Also, I think I'm seeing within this post an inability to separate biological sex from sociological gender. A transwoman, for example, is a biological male. She would not dispute the fact that she is a biological male.

I don't think that's as uncontroversial as you appear to think it is. I've seen an awful lot of denial on this topic, but not I'm going to re-read this whole thread back to find examples.
 
But......

..... gender dysphoria (and associated transgender issues) has nothing whatsoever to do with biology (as a first-order issue, at least). Rather, it is entirely within the realms of psychiatry, psychology and sociology.

And that's why the world's medical experts in gender dysphoria are mental health professionals, not biologists.

Also, I think I'm seeing within this post an inability to separate biological sex from sociological gender. A transwoman, for example, is a biological male. She would not dispute the fact that she is a biological male. But gender-wise, she's a woman. And the reverse is true for transmen.


Anyhow, this thread now seems to have descended into some sort of entirely, uhmmm, *unrelated* discussion around abortion and so forth. Not so surprising I suppose. Carry on!

I mean, it's got something to do with biology. It's a psychological rejection of biological fact.

You don't tell someone with phantom limb syndrome that the solution is to pretend their missing limb is actually present.

You probably shouldn't tell someone with male genitalia, male hormones, male skeletal structure, etc., that the solution to their rejection of this reality is to pretend it doesn't matter.

To the extent that psychology does matter, it matters for everybody, not just the trans person themselves. Perceiving a biological male as male is a psychological effect that happens outside that male's own psyche, independently of their own perception of themselves. They may believe that pretending they're female is the right solution psychologically for them, but it may not be the right solution for anyone else, and shouldn't be binding on anyone else.
 
I don't think that's as uncontroversial as you appear to think it is. I've seen an awful lot of denial on this topic, but not I'm going to re-read this whole thread back to find examples.

Boudicca came pretty close. I don't think she actually went so far as to say that she's not a biological male. Her line seems to be that the distinction is irrelevant, that gender trumps biology, and that she's entitled to be considered female in every context where biological sex is a factor.
 
Also, I think I'm seeing within this post an inability to separate biological sex from sociological gender. A transwoman, for example, is a biological male. She would not dispute the fact that she is a biological male. But gender-wise, she's a woman. And the reverse is true for transmen.

You mean, aside from the insistence that sex is a spectrum and isn't binary?

Sex redefined - The idea of two sexes is simplistic. Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than that.

Sex biology redefined: Article suggests that genes don’t indicate binary sexes

University of South Dakota: The Spectrum Model of Sex, Gender and Sexuality

Sex isn’t binary, and we should stop acting like it is: It’s time for legislation and education to reflect sex as a spectrum with unlimited options

The Myth Of Biological Sex
 
Boudicca came pretty close. I don't think she actually went so far as to say that she's not a biological male. Her line seems to be that the distinction is irrelevant, that gender trumps biology, and that she's entitled to be considered female in every context where biological sex is a factor.

I believe it was that she is female in every way that matters.
 
You mean, aside from the insistence that sex is a spectrum and isn't binary?
What I'll always find frustrating about these "sex is a spectrum" thinkpieces is the failure to address why sex exists, as an adaptation, from a scientific perspective. Sometimes the straightforward explanation is too difficult to say out loud?

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In related news:

Trans man loses UK legal battle to register as his child's father

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/16/trans-man-loses-uk-legal-battle-to-register-as-his-childs-father

In the appeal court, Lord Burnett came down in favour of the right of a child born to a transgender parent to know the biological reality of its birth, rather than the parent’s right to be recognised on the birth certificate in their legal gender.

Burnett said that laws passed by parliament had not “decoupled the concept of mother from gender”. He said any interference with McConnell’s rights to family life, caused by birth registration documents describing him as a mother when he lives as his child’s father, could be justified.
 

Okay, that's just weird. There are fairly good reasons to want to have clarity around the paternal and the maternal lineages. For example, lots of genetic disorders are only present on one line. I am a carrier for red-green color blindness. That's a recessive disorder carried on the X chromosome, that is almost exclusively expressed in males, because the Y chromosome has no counterpart for it. On the other hand, my migraines have a matrilineal component. None of that has anything to do with how my parents present or how they feel on the inside. It has only to do with actual real reproductive biology.
 
Okay, that's just weird. There are fairly good reasons to want to have clarity around the paternal and the maternal lineages. For example, lots of genetic disorders are only present on one line. I am a carrier for red-green color blindness. That's a recessive disorder carried on the X chromosome, that is almost exclusively expressed in males, because the Y chromosome has no counterpart for it. On the other hand, my migraines have a matrilineal component. None of that has anything to do with how my parents present or how they feel on the inside. It has only to do with actual real reproductive biology.

Why is it weird?

It’s a judgement I agree with but can’t see why it is”weird”.
 
I believe it was that she is female in every way that matters.

As I recall, this was followed by some waffle about what ways really matter. Like professional sports didn't matter, I guess?

At that point it seemed pretty clear from the counters of her arguments that (a) she saw an important distinction between male and female, and (b) acknowledging this distinction undermines her goal of trans acceptance. So it seemed pointless to continue the discussion. What's left to say, after that?
 
The ask by the transman was weird, and the fact that it had to go to court was weird. The judgement was fine. Sorry for being unclear.

Still not understanding what is weird, this is someone whose official records now record them as “M” so I can understand why they would want the same on the kid’s birth certificate.

This judgement had to weigh up the rights of both the kid and the mother, only one side could be the “winner”. I think the judgement is correct, the kid’s right to know its family outweighs the consideration of the bloke to be known as the father.

And I think it will help future calls. In this case the reasoning seems to be that the bloke has the right to be known as a bloke but “mother” is a distinct role and whether the person is known as a man or woman is irrelevant to that role.
 
Still not understanding what is weird, this is someone whose official records now record them as “M” so I can understand why they would want the same on the kid’s birth certificate.

This judgement had to weigh up the rights of both the kid and the mother, only one side could be the “winner”. I think the judgement is correct, the kid’s right to know its family outweighs the consideration of the bloke to be known as the father.

And I think it will help future calls. In this case the reasoning seems to be that the bloke has the right to be known as a bloke but “mother” is a distinct role and whether the person is known as a man or woman is irrelevant to that role.

Just the entire concept of the person who carried the child in their womb wanting to force the birth certificate to list them as the father.

It's weird to me, because this is a situation I never even conceived of happening, let alone being taken seriously for discussion.
 
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