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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

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shuttlt said:
Oh, ok. Well, I think that's bad and anybody who makes a call like that should be arrested, but I honestly don't think there is the same fear of violence and retribution from the right wing crazies as there is from the left wing crazies. The lawyers have left the case and are shutting up, the election workers are publicly complaining about the call, continuing with the election and being backed up by republicans. Also, I thought the claim was intimidating people with guns?
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It's as if you post from a fact-free bubble, unaware that right wing nuts are considered the greatest threat by the FBI, unaware that right wing nuts plotted to try Gov Whitmer in the woods, unaware that Dear Leader supported said nuts, unaware that right wing nuts own murder statistics, unaware that armed right wing nuts gathered around the Maricopa election HQ, unaware that neo nazis ("good people") have been told to "stand by" by Dear Leader. Etcetera.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
This whole thing is a red herring anyway. Mail-in ballots going missing would favour Trump, not Biden.
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Only if they went missing at random.

If the USPS could somehow have determined that the ballots were for President Trump and/or were from districts which heavily favoured him and discarded them, then it could have favoured Biden.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
This whole thing is a red herring anyway. Mail-in ballots going missing would favour Trump, not Biden.
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I think the theory is that mail in ballots weren't delivered to their proper destinations, but were instead diverted to the secret hideaway where they were filled in as votes for Biden.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
Also, I assume team Trump would try to invalidate one of the provisions to get all the mail in votes tossed.
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The problem with the fraudulent vote/stolen election lie is that if justifies in the minds of the aggrieved stealing the next election. If the other side is stealing your election, what wouldn't you do to make sure they don't steal the next one? Violence? Voter intimidation? Organize your own election fraud? If you think your election is being stolen unlawfully, why wouldn't you use the same tactics to steal the next one?

Obviously, this election wasn't stolen. Trump's claims are lies and that's all there is to it. If you believe the lie though, of course you'd do all those things.
 
Craig4 said:
The problem with the fraudulent vote/stolen election lie is that if justifies in the minds of the aggrieved stealing the next election. If the other side is stealing your election, what wouldn't you do to make sure they don't steal the next one? Violence? Voter intimidation? Organize your own election fraud? If you think your election is being stolen unlawfully, why wouldn't you use the same tactics to steal the next one?
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The "other" side doesn't need justification. I doubt very many people really believe the election has been stolen, it's just a useful anchor to hook their whining to.

Besides which, I think I would be right in saying that trying to rig elections in a parties favour is built into the US electoral system with gerry-mandering and whatnot seemingly a perfectly legal avenue to pursue.
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
This is a question for everyone. Why do you think the Postal service could not deliver ballots AND scan them to confirm delivery? Ask yourself. The USPS moves millions of pieces of mail every day. During the Holiday season more. Why would you expect your Christmas delivery to be scanned at delivery and your election ballot not?
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Asking a question is not providing evidence. Asking questions is great for developing hypotheses, and I don't mind anyone looking into the election to see that everything went as planned (which, however, as already happened).

But these rhetorical questions too often masquerade as either a claim - that the USPS did something nefarious - or as evidence that they did, and that just doesn't work.

State a claim (not by asking a question) and find actual evidence (which is also not a question) to support it.
 
I'm not clear which party is supposed to be upset that the ballots were not scanned?

People who mail in ballots? Can't they check their county website for confirmation? I was able to google confirmation of my envelope signature.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I'm not clear which party is supposed to be upset that the ballots were not scanned?

People who mail in ballots? Can't they check their county website for confirmation? I was able to google confirmation of my envelope signature.
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You’re not supposed to be clear on who the problem affects, what the problem is, or if it even really exists.

They’ll be no clarity or definitive answers. Just a vague sense that maybe something, somewhere isn’t quite right.

That is how conspiracy theories are designed to function.
 
johnny karate said:
You’re not supposed to be clear on who the problem affects, what the problem is, or if it even really exists.

They’ll be no clarity or definitive answers. Just a vague sense that maybe something, somewhere isn’t quite right.

That is how conspiracy theories are designed to function.
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I very much enjoyed this game designer's take on Qanon and think it applies well to the success of all the Trumpland conspiracy theories.

https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

One of the biggest takeaways for me. The vagueness of it doesn't only make it unfalsifiable and shift the focus from facts to gut feelings. It does those things, but it also creates a puzzle. By letting believers fill in the blanks instead of telling them the answers with clarity, they feel a deep ownership of their beliefs and are much more resistant to changing them.
 
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Cavemonster said:
I very much enjoyed this game designer's take on qanon and think it applies well to the success of all the Trumpland conspiracy theories.

https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

One of the biggest takeaway's for me. The vagueness of it doesn't only make it unfalsifiable and shift the focus from facts to gut feelings. It does those things, but it also creates a puzzle. By letting believers fill in the blanks instead of telling them the answers with clarity, they feel a deep ownership of their beliefs and are much more resistant to changing them.
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good read, thanks!
 
QAnon grows on the wild misinterpretation of random data, presented in a suggestive fashion in a milieu designed to help the users come to the intended misunderstanding.
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Similarity to religion and how it triggers pattern matchers in your brain is uncanny.

It is yet another confirmation of my philosophy - that human is something that must be defeated. Tribalism is human. Seeing connections where none exist is human. Selfishness, paranoia, atrocity, genocide - it all is too human.

If avoiding destruction from our own hands means we have to throw away humanity, then so be it.
 
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Mader Levap said:
Similarity to religion and how it triggers pattern matchers in your brain is uncanny.

It is yet another confirmation of my philosophy - that human is something that must be defeated. Tribalism is human. Seeing connections where none exist is human. Selfishness, paranoia, atrocity, genocide - it all is too human.

If avoiding destruction from our own hands means we have to throw away humanity, then so be it.
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Pattern seeking as a human trait isn't inherently destructive though. The same tendency that fuels conspiracy theories also fuels scientific progress. Those people use the same pattern finding drive.

Even tribalism. You could think of it as excluding or hating the "other". I'd say that any empathy at all is a human trait, or at least an animal one, and the root of tribalism is that we extend our regards for our own well being to our family, our village, our tribe. The problem is we need to extend it further.

We've got tons of competing and contradictory drives, and when we arrange and adjust them best towards harmony and human flourishing, that's not a denial of humanity, that's humanity at it's best.

Our human brains crave sugar and fat. Those things were rare and valuable calories in our early days. Now that calories are cheap, that CAN lead to bad health. But we ALSO have drives to be healthy, to eat in variety. Eating a varied healthy diet and getting exercise isn't defeating our humanity that craves cookie dough, it's balancing our drives to serve our real interests the best they can.

Finding patterns where none exist is just one side of our amazing pattern finding ability. Just like our cravings for food can be tempered by our drive for health, pattern finding doesn't need to be eliminated, just balanced and checked with our other values and drives.
 
Do we still await evidence of fraud on a scale that would genuinely put the election result into question, from Trump or any of his supporters?
 
Cavemonster said:
pattern finding doesn't need to be eliminated, just balanced and checked with our other values and drives.
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If you manage to do something like that, what will come out won't be human. Note this is not moral or value judgement, just statement of fact.

For me, human is defined by these errant pattern matchers, misaligned perception, maladjusted filters, bugged wetware.

If you try to "fix" those (I will take aside how to fix problems while being under influence of these very problems and how you define state where you can say "it is fixed" - these are very big cans of worms), you will be forced to change so much that result will be literally alien mind.

I am fine with it. It is not like children are literal extension of parents.
 
Nessie said:
Do we still await evidence of fraud on a scale that would genuinely put the election result into question, from Trump or any of his supporters?
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Some people are saying that they should be sent to the Fema camps.
 
Mader Levap said:
If you manage to do something like that, what will come out won't be human.
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We put checks on our "human" drives CONSTANTLY.

We have a drive towards sex, but unchecked, that drive can lead to rape, unwanted children or STDs.

Our social and self interest drives put checks in place. We've got contraception in a variety of types, concepts of consent and community policing.

We sure as heck haven't eliminated these problems, but we're getting better and better at it.

No individual drive makes us "human". We have a ton of drives competing within us. We are not defined by having any one of them working against our well being.
 
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