Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

[surrogate]

This is a question for everyone. Why do you think the Postal service could not deliver ballots AND scan them to confirm delivery? Ask yourself. The USPS moves millions of pieces of mail every day. During the Holiday season more. Why would you expect your Christmas delivery to be scanned at delivery and your election ballot not?

Nobody said that they "could not deliver ballots and scan them", only that they did not, in order to not waste time that was better spent actually delivering the ballots. How long do you think it would take for a mail carrier to scan 1000 ballots they are delivering to a polling/collection location? I would guess between 30 & 60 minutes depending on the handheld scanner. Since all of the 300k ballots were scanned into the system, we should be hearing from at least 10's of thousands of voters making the claim that their ballot was never delivered. 45 states have online ballot tracking.

Ballot Tracking

 

[acbytesla]

I don't know what it takes for the crazies to cure them of their insanity? I wish I knew.

Trump and his supporters have pursued a dozen lawsuits in Pennsylvania They won 1.5 and if I remember correctly it made a difference of only a few votes.

In the meantime ballots around the country are still being counted, including in Pennsylvania. Sadly for Trump and his supporters, it not only hasn't reduced Biden's lead there, It has only increased it.

How does Chris suggest they bite into a 65 thousand plus vote lead there? You can't overturn the election without overturning Pennsylvania. And we haven't seen bubkis.

It ain't going to happen.

 

[phiwum]

No, you haven't. You refuse to understand that the election authorities scan the ballots themselves. That's how they are able maintain databases that voters can use to be sure their ballots were counted. Where are 300,000 voters -- or any -- claiming that their ballots weren't delivered?

There's bound to be some ballots that were undelivered. Most of the people whose ballots weren't delivered won't check and see their votes weren't counted. Perhaps some will, but these folk may not be interested in or capable of publicizing this fact.

Even if some do, it will be hard to estimate how many undelivered ballots do not become common knowledge.

I totally accept that some ballots didn't make it in on time. I'm doubtful that it's as many as those which weren't scanned. Even if it were, the next question is whether these ballots would have made a significant difference. We could presume that they followed the mail voting patterns of their precincts. In most precincts, this would mean an advantage for Biden, not Trump.

Chris has a long way to go to show that we should believe that these unscanned ballots are a symptom of an unjust outcome.

 

[dirtywick]

Pointing out to a group of skeptics that faith and trust are not the same as proof of delivery verification is easy.

Watching them argue for a faith based acceptance over an electronic delivery confirmation scan is priceless.

Nobody is arguing that the ballots weren’t scanned in. It’s not the same thing as not being delivered. If they were not delivered and not counted it would be trivial for Trumps legal team of total not clowns to prove. That seems to be the hurdle for you here. I don’t know how many more times that needs to be pointed out. A lot probably?

 

[BobTheCoward]

Pointing out to a group of skeptics that faith and trust are not the same as proof of delivery verification is easy.

Watching them argue for a faith based acceptance over an electronic delivery confirmation scan is priceless.

Did one of us argue that they were all delivered?

 

[8enotto]

There are things that were done in the fastest manner possible to complete instructions. The post office staff did that. They know they can be held accountable for failure to do anything else.
Full compliance meant delivery, scanned or not scanned. And they delivered what they could.
Job well done.


Accountability is something all should be held to in all parts of an election. I do wonder how the results of applying that to all involved would come out.

 

[acbytesla]

Nobody is arguing that the ballots weren’t scanned in. It’s not the same thing as not being delivered. If they were not delivered and not counted it would be trivial for Trumps legal team of total not clowns to prove. That seems to be the hurdle for you here. I don’t know how many more times that needs to be pointed out. A lot probably?

I think it is important for Chris and everyone to recognize this salient fact. No court is going to overturn the results of an election over the absence of ballots being scanned delivered. The law doesn't allow it.

You would have to show that actual ballots were fraudulent. Are there three hundred thousand voters complaining their votes weren't counted? Nope.

Only if you could present a huge number of voters complaining about their votes not being counted who had the receipts of their ballots would it begin to have a possibility of merit.

As it stands, Chris is complaining about something that has zero chance of affecting the election by a single vote.

 

[smartcooky]

No, you haven't. You refuse to understand that the election authorities scan the ballots themselves. That's how they are able maintain databases that voters can use to be sure their ballots were counted. Where are 300,000 voters -- or any -- claiming that their ballots weren't delivered?

Yep, a supplier drops off a package to me, but I don't sign for it because I'm busy, that doesn't mean it hasn't been delivered, it only means the courier company does not have my signature as proof of delivery. It doesn't prevent me from opening the package and selling the contents to customers.

 

[acbytesla]

Yep, a supplier drops off a package to me, but I don't sign for it because I'm busy, that doesn't mean it hasn't been delivered, it only means the courier company does not have my signature as proof of delivery. It doesn't prevent me from opening the package and selling the contents to customers.

Chris is being deliberately obtuse.

If my barcode shows my ballot being received by the USPS on November 1, 2 or on the third and the ballot is scanned received by the elections board on the 1st through the 6th does that mean it wasn't delivered because the USPS didn't scan it delivered?

Even though the USPS managed by Trump's Postmaster General says that in the interest of not disenfranchising voters they skipped the step?

What possible fair remedy could be applied? Any ideas Chris?

 

[Babbylonian]

Chris is being deliberately obtuse.

If my barcode shows my ballot being received by the USPS on November 1, 2 or on the third and the ballot is scanned received by the elections board on the 1st through the 6th does that mean it wasn't delivered because the USPS didn't scan it delivered?

Even though the USPS managed by Trump's Postmaster General says that in the interest of not disenfranchising voters they skipped the step?

What possible fair remedy could be applied? Any ideas Chris?

I can answer this question: They'd just have to be late and not get counted, and aw shucks it's too bad that the majority of the votes lost were for Biden.

 

[johnny karate]

I've already submitted evidence of 300K ballots. And you have hand waved them away preferring to trust the narrative that "We promise we delivered the ballots". "We bypassed delivery confirmation scans because we had a deadline." If that's good enough for you I guess your guy is in good shape with no worries.

Please point to anyone in any kind of relevant official capacity who agrees with your assessment.

Assuming your failure to do so, why should anyone believe you or even care?

 

[acbytesla]

I can answer this question: They'd just have to be late and not get counted, and aw shucks it's too bad that the majority of the votes lost were for Biden.

I'm sure Chris will suggest something like that. Never mind that remedy would violate written laws and all legal precedence. It also goes against the maxim failure by the plaintiff doesn't equal error by the defendant.

 

[dudalb]

I think it is important for Chris and everyone to recognize this salient fact. No court is going to overturn the results of an election over the absence of ballots being scanned delivered. The law doesn't allow it.

You would have to show that actual ballots were fraudulent. Are there three hundred thousand voters complaining their votes weren't counted? Nope.

Only if you could present a huge number of voters complaining about their votes not being counted who had the receipts of their ballots would it begin to have a possibility of merit.

As it stands, Chris is complaining about something that has zero chance of affecting the election by a single vote.

CHris's real complaint is not enough Americans loved Dear Leader enough.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm sure Chris will suggest something like that. Never mind that remedy would violate written laws and all legal precedence. It also goes against the maxim failure by the plaintiff doesn't equal error by the defendant.

Also, They weren't late. They were postmarked on or before the third and scanned received by the Election board.

How do you call them late? There also is no written law requiring them to be scanned "delivered", only "postmarked"

 

[Meadmaker]

I wonder, did you consider Al Gore as the elected President in 2000 prior to the results of the recount and EC vote?

Try a different angle. I stayed up until the wee hours that night, and went to bed after the networks declared George Bush the victor.

So, by some logic somewhere, Al Gore should have given up, because the networks said George Bush was the next President of the United States.

And yet, they kept counting, because networks don't declare presidents. The projection made by the networks is irrelevant.


So one might ask if I thought it was ok for Al Gore to keep fighting even after the networks declared George Bush the winner, shouldn't I say it is ok for Donald Trump to keep fighting even after the networks declared Joe Biden the winner?

In my opinion, it's ok for Donald Trump to keep fighting. The network declaration has no legal significance. However, what he does in that fight reflects on him, and could cause damage to the country. Al Gore didn't say there was massive fraud. Al Gore didn't declare that the election was rigged because of bad ballots. (And....George W. Bush did, in fact, win because of bad ballots.) Al Gore said let's play by the rules, exhaust our legal options and count every legal vote.

If that was all Donald Trump was saying, I think it would be just fine. Instead, he is accusing people of fraud, lying to the people, and undermining democracy. Demanding that we count every vote isn't undermining democracy, but demanding that we throw out votes is.


And of course there's another, purely practical, perspective. Al Gore had a legitimate possibility of being declared the winner. Donald Trump does not. His actions are just making a lot of people go to a lot of trouble that they don't need to do, except to satisfy the whims of Trump. He lost. Nothing is going to change that. I don't know exactly what the Secretary of State does every day, but I'm guessing that they would be doing something at least somewhat worthwhile if he weren't getting ready to count five million votes by hand. Trump should let people get on with their work. He has a legal right to try every legal avenue, but it's completely futile, and embarrassing.

It does have one positive effect though. There are people who voted for him, and this display will help a small number of those people realize why so many of us despise him so much more intensely than we despise other Republicans.

 

[Meadmaker]

This is a question for everyone. Why do you think the Postal service could not deliver ballots AND scan them to confirm delivery?

Because the USPS said they could not, and I figure they know more about mail delivery than I do.

 

[smartcooky]

I have a results page on a pinned tab, and I have been keeping an eye on the numbers

Biden leads are increasing nationally on the popular vote is now 5.72 million, up by about 100,000 since I last looked. It has also pushed past 51% of the vote to Trump's 47%. Biden could end up pushing 80 million votes... that would be truly unprecedented.

His lead is also increasing in those swing states

PA: 65,866, a 500+ increase
GA: 14,122, a 120+ increase
NV: 33,596,, a 190+ increase

Its just getting worse for Trump

 

[Minoosh]

This is a question for everyone. Why do you think the Postal service could not deliver ballots AND scan them to confirm delivery? Ask yourself. The USPS moves millions of pieces of mail every day. During the Holiday season more. Why would you expect your Christmas delivery to be scanned at delivery and your election ballot not?

I'm the wrong person to ask. I am amazed daily by what the USPS accomplishes. The way I know if a package was delivered is whether I have it or not. I can't remember a time when a package, check etc. was "lost in the mail."

The question is not whether the Postal Service is capable of doing a perfect job. (It's not, as it is run by humans). It's whether there were any reports of hundreds of thousands "missing" ballots to corroborate what you are claiming – or at least hinting at; just asking questions is not a claim per se.

Look at how earnest and patient people are being with you on this thread. Ask yourself if Trump supporters would have anywhere near this level of forbearance, or whether they'd be screaming bloody murder about a stolen election, waving guns around and refusing to budge even one millimeter from their positions. Maybe from your point of view the Dems/Biden look weak. From where I sit it looks like strength.

 

[acbytesla]

Try a different angle. I stayed up until the wee hours that night, and went to bed after the networks declared George Bush the victor.

So, by some logic somewhere, Al Gore should have given up, because the networks said George Bush was the next President of the United States.

And yet, they kept counting, because networks don't declare presidents. The projection made by the networks is irrelevant.


So one might ask if I thought it was ok for Al Gore to keep fighting even after the networks declared George Bush the winner, shouldn't I say it is ok for Donald Trump to keep fighting even after the networks declared Joe Biden the winner?

In my opinion, it's ok for Donald Trump to keep fighting. The network declaration has no legal significance. However, what he does in that fight reflects on him, and could cause damage to the country. Al Gore didn't say there was massive fraud. Al Gore didn't declare that the election was rigged because of bad ballots. (And....George W. Bush did, in fact, win because of bad ballots.) Al Gore said let's play by the rules, exhaust our legal options and count every legal vote.

If that was all Donald Trump was saying, I think it would be just fine. Instead, he is accusing people of fraud, lying to the people, and undermining democracy. Demanding that we count every vote isn't undermining democracy, but demanding that we throw out votes is.


And of course there's another, purely practical, perspective. Al Gore had a legitimate possibility of being declared the winner. Donald Trump does not. His actions are just making a lot of people go to a lot of trouble that they don't need to do, except to satisfy the whims of Trump. He lost. Nothing is going to change that. I don't know exactly what the Secretary of State does every day, but I'm guessing that they would be doing something at least somewhat worthwhile if he weren't getting ready to count five million votes by hand. Trump should let people get on with their work. He has a legal right to try every legal avenue, but it's completely futile, and embarrassing.

It does have one positive effect though. There are people who voted for him, and this display will help a small number of those people realize why so many of us despise him so much more intensely than we despise other Republicans.

This was excellent. I wish I wrote this well.
.

 

[dudalb]

And unless we are talking about tens of thousands of ballots being deleivered late, it's not enough to change the outcome.
Chris is still in the denial stage of grief.