"Quagmire" morphs into "A Very Sucessful Effort"

[Nyarlathotep]

I'm merely pointing out what the democrats have done to sabotage victory in Iraq...hence I'm being attacked.

-z

Yeah, uh, sure, that's precisely why you are being attacked. Things like, oh.......saying that Democrats support terrorists and are sabotaging victory in Iraq have absolutely squat to do with it.

 

[rikzilla]

You're wrong that anyone was poisoning the well. The Washington Times' credibility is germane.

Perhaps...but not when the quotes of Carter are so well documented. I posted the article because I felt it was well written and to the point...not because it was written with the help of Moonie-money.

Since I went ahead and posted a further "credible" source this is really no longer an issue and the people who made it an issue in the first place look like they were leaning on the poison well fallacy...as indeed they were.

But, more to the point, you are putting forth a pernicious Machiavellian argument, namely that the Democrats must act duplicitously in order to avoid benefitting from critical policy failures in Iraq. Do you really not see why some people might consider that highly unreasonable?

Not really when it's so obvious that the political coin they were well placed to spend was to be minted in the "quagmire" of Iraq. Since victory and political stability in Iraq is a hard national interest of the US...the leadership of the Dem party...namely Dr. Dean...has acted against said national interest. In past years this would have indeed been called by a harsher name than I have invoked in this thread.

I can explain the Democratic party's motives: if we actually have failed (with regard to our original goals) in Iraq, it behooves us to recognize that fact and adjust expectations, rather than pretend that everything is just going to get better if we keep on throwing money and lives at the problem. This sort of post hoc error is pretty common in the corporate world, too; the problem isn't that the plan was critically flawed, it's that some people were critical of the plan. Why couldn't they just adopt the plan? The plan was going to work!

In the corporate world upper management does not watch the company slip toward bankruptcy in the hope that they can make the CEO look bad. What they do is offer alternative strategies for corporate success. I have seen no alternative better ideas from the Dem party. If there aren't any better ideas then they should support the current plan. I haven't seen many of them do that either. Joe Lieberman...Hillary Clinton...I can't honestly name any others although I'm sure there must be some...

You are arguing (equivocally, that you might cry about straw men when called on it) that Democrats are commiting sedition by daring to criticize the war effort. Hell, if they succeed in ending the war, they're even profiteering on the subsequent deaths! Isn't it awful how people who are correct tend to benefit politically in democracies? We really must prevent that from happening.

Well, I merely said that the dem leadership has purposefully placed itself in the precarious company of America's various enemies in that it would directly profit politically from an Iraqi disaster...and then re-enforced their bet by making public statements designed to demoralize the nation. I guess politics makes strange bedfellows eh?

You're right that folks who are right should benefit politically...but that would be Bush et al...(at least as it appears right now). So; what does Bush have to do in order to get an attaboy from the "loyal opposition" anyway??

-z

Oh BTW: Thanks for being the first thoughtful reply to my OP.

 

[rikzilla]

1 - You have explained nothing about my stance. I know you often try, but this not physically possible since this was my first post in this thread. I have to conclude that your temper has gotten out of hand.

Oh, I feel fine...really.

You said: "The fact remains that the democratic party has hitched it's political fortunes to failure and death for our soldiers in Iraq. They've backed the wrong horse...the terrorists...they should be deeply ashamed."
I called your statement what it is.

"Factual?" No you called it BS without explaining why.

The fact is that the democrats are critical of the Bush venture in Iraq. This is an idea that could be discussed. What you posted was partisan, frothing at the mouth, extremist bovine excrement.

I assure you there is no frothing going on here. I just call 'em as I see 'em.

2 - Then you said, as if backpeddling would improve the smell of your previous statement: "Why don't you simply look at my real argument; that the democrats have placed themselves to profit politically from defeat in Iraq". This is closer to something that can be discussed, but is still chocky jam full of steaming brown hate-mongering.

"hate-mongering" Big funny! You forgot to mention that I'm a racist and forgot to shave this morning too. Ad-hom away...my point stands well on it's own.

Politics is about power. Both parties play the game. On a skeptic board, you ought to at least try to not blindly support one side while at the same time making stuff up about the other. There are enough facts to consider without slobbering all over the discussion.

Why don't you just point out how the leader of the Dem party has supported the effort to win in Iraq. That would be a good start.

-z

 

[rikzilla]

I agree. Hillary is one of the Democratic party's bright spots. However I'm not sure if I trust her move to the center. But my mind is very open to supporting her.

-z

 

[hammegk]

There's no shortage of things to criticize about the U.S. conduct of this war.

Especially when the US lacks a good Alien & Sedition Act and the cojones to enforce it ...

 

[fishbob]

Why don't you just point out how the leader of the Dem party has supported the effort to win in Iraq. That would be a good start.

-z

You made the claim. You know the drill.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Especially when the US lacks a good Alien & Sedition Act and the cojones to enforce it ...

What are you insinuating?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Especially when the US lacks a good Alien & Sedition Act and the cojones to enforce it ...

Because nothing says 'freedom & liberty' like imprisoning people for criticizing the government.

 

[Tony]

What are you insinuating?

He is saying that he wants the republicans to commit political suicide. People like hammegk are why the 2nd amendment exists.

 

[hammegk]

What are you insinuating?

I think my meaning is plain enough. When you have people in the US military, overseas, fighting, let me know and I'll do my best to alert them that what they are doing is meaningless.

There are methods to fault government actions that would be appropriate in times of war, and others that to me are less so. I see damn few appropriate comments from the Bush-haters in this thread.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I think my meaning is plain enough. When you have people in the US military, overseas, fighting, let me know and I'll do my best to alert them that what they are doing is meaningless.

There are methods to fault government actions that would be appropriate in times of war, and others that to me are less so. I see damn few appropriate comments from the Bush-haters in this thread.

Considering we who opposed the war before it started were shouted down with the following accusations:

Being unpatriotic

Dishonoring the memories of those who died in the 9/11 attacks

Supporting terrorists

Being sore over "losing" the 2000 election

I don't see where exactly a public debate over the war was allowed in the first place. What exactly would you prefer to tell the people who are fighting over there, would you continue to send them propaganda, continue to ignore all of those are dying by refusing to show images of their coffins arriving, continuing to pretend that offical hostilites ended?

When we speak out against such aggregious lies, do you expect to muzzle us with threats of imprisonment? Truely, King George III would have approved.

 

[Tony]

When we speak out against such aggregious lies, do you expect to muzzle us with threats of imprisonment? Truely, King George III would have approved.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Conservatives hate this country more than anyone.

 

[hammegk]

Considering we who opposed the war before it started were shouted down with the following accusations:

Being unpatriotic

Dishonoring the memories of those who died in the 9/11 attacks

Supporting terrorists

Being sore over "losing" the 2000 election

I don't see where exactly a public debate over the war was allowed in the first place.

And -- sorry to tell you this -- you and yours lost that debate. And perhaps for better reasons than your carping above would indicate, at least both the legislative & executive branches both agreed.

What exactly would you prefer to tell the people who are fighting over there, would you continue to send them propaganda, continue to ignore all of those are dying by refusing to show images of their coffins arriving, continuing to pretend that offical hostilites ended?

Thanks for putting their lives on the line whether or not they and their specific mission doesn't meet 100% support on the homefront.

Display your dissatisfaction via voting the next time you can; impeachment is also a process if you and enough others feel that strongly about it

When we speak out against such aggregious lies, do you expect to muzzle us with threats of imprisonment?

Liars abound in politics and elsewhere. I consider your statement a lie.



Tony; yew have a purty mouth, boy.

 

[rikzilla]

You made the claim. You know the drill.

Gee Bob...is it that bloody hard to do? You're not even going to make an attempt? Yeah, I know the drill:

• Argue from the poison well.
• Beat up the strawman.
• Muddy the waters by removing context.
• Lie.
• Play dumb.
• Goal-post remodelling.
• more straw....
• ad-hom
• denial of reality
• more ad-hom
  ...and now;
• evasion of the direct question.

You; Bob, have steered an unremarkable course towards mediocrity. I've seen one honest attempt to support Dr. Dean et al in their stewardship of that great American institution; The Democratic Party; with facts. One honest Democrat who seems dismayed at the direction his party has gone...and then for the rest of you there is the list of shame.

I had thought in starting this thread that there would be some fight left in the left. Some area that could be defended...and I actually looked forward to being shown it. It's horrifying really...the depths to which the dems have sunk...and I am from a long, long line of southern democrats.That party is gone. What is left is simply a lump of unrecognizable weakness and distortion.

Well let me just say this about the modern Democratic Party in words which will be imminently understandable: "I voted for the Dems befoe I voted against them"....but voting against them has become ever more satisfying.

-z

 

[rikzilla]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Conservatives hate this country more than anyone.

Usualy one must attend a bowling alley to meet someone of your intelligence.

 

[Libertarian]

The morphing that I find fascinating is the morphing of the justification for war from "protect the u.s." into one of establishing democracy in another country. What support would there have been for this war in the beginning if it had been proposed to spill American blood in order to guarantee democracy IN ANOTHER COUNTRY!?

The celebrating by the neocons today (12/15) over this latest Iraqi election makes me sick. Don't the decades of violence since WWII in the Mid-East and eastern Europe provide ample evidence about the West's ability for nation building? Do we need to rename the Dept of Defense to Dept of Global Wars to Spread Freedom and Democracy?

Where are all the paleoconservatives when you need them?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I had thought in starting this thread that there would be some fight left in the left. Some area that could be defended...and I actually looked forward to being shown it. It's horrifying really...the depths to which the dems have sunk...and I am from a long, long line of southern democrats.That party is gone. What is left is simply a lump of unrecognizable weakness and distortion.

Translastion from Rik-speak to English

"I started a thread full full of inflammatory accusations and charcater assasinations, but then the evil liberals began objecting to my slanders. Only right-wingers are allowed to throw out straw men and ad-homs. Lefties are supposed to just sit there and take it. Everyone knows that."

By the way, you make quite a leap in assuming that everyone who disagrees with your characterizations is a Democrat.

 

[rikzilla]

The morphing that I find fascinating is the morphing of the justification for war from "protect the u.s." into one of establishing democracy in another country. What support would there have been for this war in the beginning if it had been proposed to spill American blood in order to guarantee democracy IN ANOTHER COUNTRY!?

That was never a one legged stool in the first place. I can easily find justification in the form of 26,000,000 persons freed from tyranny and now voting in the first real election in the long, long history of the country. What once was a tyrant's property is now a free nation. That's worth celebrating...isn't it?

The celebrating by the neocons today (12/15) over this latest Iraqi election makes me sick.

People celebrating the spectacle of 26 MILLION people joining the "free" world makes you sick?? You must have felt awfully well watching the Tiannenmen Square massacre on tv then....

Don't the decades of violence since WWII in the Mid-East and eastern Europe provide ample evidence about the West's ability for nation building? Do we need to rename the Dept of Defense to Dept of Global Wars to Spread Freedom and Democracy?

Where are all the paleoconservatives when you need them?

??? Pillory...is that you?

-z

 

[jj]

Translastion from Rik-speak to English

"I started a thread full full of inflammatory accusations and charcater assasinations, but then the evil liberals began objecting to my slanders. Only right-wingers are allowed to throw out straw men and ad-homs. Lefties are supposed to just sit there and take it. Everyone knows that."

By the way, you make quite a leap in assuming that everyone who disagrees with your characterizations is a Democrat.

Well, I'm a bit to the right side of moderate, and he treats me like a leftie, i.e. he treats me as though I'm not even human...

I think he goes quite a bit farther than lefties, Ny. If you're not with him or to the right of him, it's "love it or leave it".

I wonder what he thinks about Hammy's "alien and sedition" comment. Does he also think that it's proper to jail people for not accepting the lies made by the present administration?

As to Hammy, well, he seems to be unable to stop conflating opposition to the start of the war with support for troops. I want the war over because I support the troops, duh, not because I dont' support the troops.

Now, of course, we're in deep and we have an ethical obligation to get things back on track. I sure hope that works.

 

[Libertarian]

[QUOTE

By the way, you make quite a leap in assuming that everyone who disagrees with your characterizations is a Democrat.[/QUOTE]



Or the Left.

It's the Republican Party that has disappeared. It's painfully obvious now that the neocons are not Conservatives as much as they are the other side of the Statist coin shared with the Liberals. The neocons aren't against big government -- they merely disagree with the Left on what the purpose of big government should be.