Will Trump be re-elected?

Will trump be re-elected?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 14.5%
  • No

    Votes: 80 41.5%
  • Don't know, but I hope not

    Votes: 82 42.5%
  • Don't know, but I hope he does

    Votes: 3 1.6%

  • Total voters
    193
That was a fluke. This will be a coup, and yes, the end of democracy in the USA.
Wasn't it you expecting civil war not so long ago?

All to save the country from the horrors of a Joe Biden presidency? I'm not a big fan of his to say the least, but he will be the legitimate president come inauguration day, and the notion that a lot of elected politicians or the generals would support Trump even after an election loss is silly. Didn't he just say he was going to fire the head of the Joint Chiefs after the election?
 
one time is a fluke.

But just now Kavanaugh referenced Bush v. Gore in a vote-counting lawsuit, which means that at least for him it's Precedent (even though the literal text of the decisions says that it cannot be taken as such).

No, Florida 2000 might have been a fluke then, but it has become a blueprint.

3 SCOTUS justices were on Bush's legal team in 2000.
 
I'd love to hear the Supreme Court make a legal argument that something they do isn't a precedent. I'm pretty sure that's not how like... what the law is... works.

But that's exactly what they did in 2000 to appoint Bush as POTUS.
 
Okay. And then what happens when a future Supreme Court uses it as precedence anyway?

And what was it about 2000 that made is so unique?

Nothing will happen other than everyone understanding the hypocrisy of the Republican hacks that sit in the SCOTUS.
 
Nothing will happen other than everyone understanding the hypocrisy of the Republican hacks that sit in the SCOTUS.

Oh so that thing that we all already know that doesn't matter because they don't care.

That's reassuring.
 
The best argument for a Biden win, IMO, is that the Trump campaign doesn't have the money to litigate the election as long as the Democrats can.
 
I mean there is still the delicious possibility that losing the power of the Presidency is what finally makes everyone just completely turn on Trump, who quickly learns that a maybe President isn't as powerful as a definitely President.

It's like Bronn told Tyrion when he refused to fight the Mountain for him. "If and when and may."
 
When a 70 + yo lifelong democrat party voter tells you he's voting for Trump because of civil unrest and doesn't trust Biden to end it, there's a problem.

There's definitely a problem if he's voting for the guy who caused the civil unrest and has already failed to end it. I think the problem lies with someone who votes for the guy who already failed because he's not sure a different guy can fix the first guy's failures.
 
When a 70 + yo lifelong democrat party voter tells you he's voting for Trump because of civil unrest and doesn't trust Biden to end it, there's a problem.

<Citation Needed>
I'm a 70+ born and raised Republican. The first two Presidential candidates I voted for were Nixon and Ford. I never left the Republican Party, it abandoned me.

Civil unrest? What the **** has Trump done about it, other than praise the police for extrajudicial killings?
 
The SCOTUS already made W Bush President 20 years ago.

Except that they really didn't. They put an end to the bickering over the ballots that was going on with the limited recount and likely would have just carried on and on.

However, a number of the major papers, including the Associated Press, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, the St. Petersburg Times, the Palm Beach Post, the Washington Post, and Tribune Co, did a detailed study into it which also included an internet app that you could go on to and do the counting yourself, determining which ballots were valid and which weren't.

The results showed that under the ways that were being petitioned, recounting the under votes, Bush most likely would have won. The main way that Gore might have ended up with more votes was in a statewide recount including all of the overvotes, and even he wasn't asking for that, and no one is entirely sure if it would have actually given him the victory because even then he would have only won if every possible mark and dimple on the ballot were counted. If only those votes that were clearly punched were counted, even if a total over/undervote complete Florida recount, Bush still would have won by around 150-400 votes.

As much as we might hate it, on the balance of odds, Bush probably did win in Florida, and the recounts being asked for would not have changed the result. Sadly however due to a lot of issues as noted by the Maimi Herald, "limitations of the voting machinery – compounded with sometimes sloppy custody of the ballots and the slight but measurable biases of allegedly neutral human tabulators – make getting precise vote totals virtually impossible."

sources - https://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/31/politics/bush-gore-2000-election-results-studies/index.html
https://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/the-florida-recount-of-2000/
 
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Almost certainly not. I am feeling more and more relaxed about this. Not much time left at all and Biden leads very comfortably.
 
As much as we might hate it, on the balance of odds, Bush probably did win in Florida...


No, that's incorrect. Based on what we know, it's pretty clear more Florida voters preferred Gore, intended to vote for Gore, and thought they had voted for Gore. the reason Bush was declared the winner wasn't that more people voted for him, it's that for a variety of reasons (some legitimate, some illegitimate) a large number of votes for Gore didn't get counted -- enough to lower Gore's vote total below Bush's in the first counting.

Some of those lost votes could not have been recovered even if there had been a recount. For instance, a large number of votes which people thought they were casting for Gore were miscast because of the confusing layout of the butterfly ballot. It's pretty clear many of those votes which were recorded as votes for Pat Buchanan were actually intended to be votes for Al Gore but there's no way of knowing which so that can't be corrected. Those votes for Gore are legitimately lost and no recount will change that.

But the overcount votes are a different story. Many people voted for Gore by filling in the box next to his name, but also wrote in his name on the line which said to fill in the name of the candidate you wanted for president (i.e. the write-in line) because that's what a literal reading of the instructions on the ballot indicated they should do. That was a mistake on those voters' part -- they didn't need to write in Gore's name as well as filling in the check box -- but it's a correctable mistake because the voter intent was clear so by Florida law those were valid votes for Gore. Those votes had been discarded in the original count because the counting machines saw both a check-box filled in and the write-in line filled in and automatically discarded those ballots, but a human being rather than machine examining the ballots could easily see those were valid ballots and would have seen it if a valid recount had been done. (Only ballots where a voter checked the box for one candidate and then wrote in the name of a different candidate should get discarded as overvotes.) And there were enough of those mistakenly-discarded ballots to have brought Gore's vote total higher than Bush's, which would have reflected the actual intent of the electorate.

The Republican strategy in 2000 was to find as many ways as possible to get Gore votes discarded in order to be able to make Bush the winner -- in other words, not to win the election by convincing more people to vote for their candidate but to win the election by getting more of their candidate's votes counted and more of their opponent's votes not counted.

That kind of thinking is very harmful to a democratic system, but unfortunately it has become increasingly common in the US in recent decades. The GOP especially has engaged in many efforts to suppress votes of people they think are more likely to vote Democratic, to make voting slower and more difficult in areas that are heavily Democratic, and to find ways to discard votes which they think are more likely to be Democratic than Republican.

In 2000 the Republicans were able to get enough Democratic votes discarded at various stages of the count and recount -- and to prevent a careful recount -- because their intent was not to get an honest representation of how people had voted in the election, it was to get their candidate elected regardless of what the actual outcome had been. But the actual outcome, if we're talking about the will of the Florida electorate rather than the result of game-playing to see which side can get more of their votes counted and which side can get more of their opponent's votes discarded, was that Gore was Florida's choice for president in 2000.
 
No, that's incorrect. Based on what we know, it's pretty clear more Florida voters preferred Gore, intended to vote for Gore, and thought they had voted for Gore. the reason Bush was declared the winner wasn't that more people voted for him, it's that for a variety of reasons (some legitimate, some illegitimate) a large number of votes for Gore didn't get counted -- enough to lower Gore's vote total below Bush's in the first counting.

Which raises the question: If we have better ways of knowing what voters actually want, than having them cast a ballot and then counting those ballots, why aren't we using one of those superior methods instead?

Why are we getting so worked up about voting holidays, ballot fraud, voter suppression, etc? Why don't we just run some opinion polls and give the EC the results?

I suppose we'd have to make it mandatory to actually respond to pollsters, though.
 
Which raises the question: If we have better ways of knowing what voters actually want, than having them cast a ballot and then counting those ballots, why aren't we using one of those superior methods instead?


You need to read more carefully (or I need to write more briefly, so that you can pay better attention to what I actually say.)

My comment advocates having voters cast their ballots and counting those ballots correctly. That often necessitates doing a recount where the ballots are examined carefully rather than trusting simply to machines. Machines often make mistakes, as exemplified in Florida 2000 when machines automatically discarded a large number of valid ballots.

We can, however, get a sense of whether there were problems with the vote counting which need to be addressed by talking with voters after the election. That's useful. It may indicate a need for a recount. It may also indicate problems worth fixing in future elections. That happened in Florida in regard to the butterfly ballots, in regard to the poorly written ballot instructions which led to overvotes, and a number of other problems.

I did not advocate using a system other than counting the ballots people cast for determining the outcome of the election (as in who gets to take office). But often there are problems with the counting -- such as, for instance, in some recent elections in Russia and Belarus -- and it's often wiser to rely on what external evidence shows us about these election outcomes rather than simply saying Well, if that's what they say the count shows it must be correct. If it's possible to do an honest recount (i.e. if the real ballots are still available for counting correctly) that's worth fighting to see done; if, as is sometimes the case in countries like those, it's not possible to do an honest recount, then it's worth speaking out against the dishonesty and working to help see that future elections are run more honestly run.

In Florida there were a number of strong indications the original count was not correct -- indications which good investigative reporting since the elections have shown to be correct. But what I see as the correct solution to the problem, which I thought was reasonably clear in my comment, was for there to be careful and accurate counting in a recount if there are indications that one is needed. And a key problem in 2000 is that attempts to have that recount were squelched -- leading to a result which we can now be reasonably sure was inaccurate.
 
Except that they really didn't. They put an end to the bickering over the ballots that was going on with the limited recount and likely would have just carried on and on.
....

But they didn't have to. State authorities -- led by Gov. Jeb Bush -- were functioning fine, and Bush might ultimately have won anyway. There was no urgent federal question that required Supreme Court intervention. There is no doubt that the SC short-circuited the process and handed the White House to Bush.

And given their history, there is no reason to doubt that the SC will weigh in on Trump's behalf if they get half a chance.
 
When a 70 + yo lifelong democrat party voter tells you he's voting for Trump because of civil unrest and doesn't trust Biden to end it, there's a problem.

Who's this 70+ yo person voting against his own interests?
 
The best argument for a Biden win, IMO, is that the Trump campaign doesn't have the money to litigate the election as long as the Democrats can.
The RNC/Trump have called my house 4 times for money today and it's not even noon. But they're greedy bastards, they may just be trying to line their pockets.
 

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