"Quagmire" morphs into "A Very Sucessful Effort"

Is the Guardian more to your liking?


Next time remember to argue the evidence...not the outlet you recieved it from... :rolleyes:

-z

Huh? The guardian article does nothing to support your position. It merely highlights the fact that Carter correctly described Iraq as a quagmire (among other things wrong with you fundamentalists).

On second look, I realize that the whole point of this thread is an invention of your delusional imagination. Carter didn't eat "humble pie", he merely applied his dislike for fundamentalists (like you) to the situation in Iraq.
 
On the contrary, we know precisely what you're attempting to convey. Texas?

That explains a great deal about your history on these forums, doesn't it?

Let's see how the left leaning posters have defended the overtly defeatist Democratic leadership's political posturing during time of shooting war:
  • Argue from the poison well.
  • Beat up the strawman.
  • Muddy the waters by removing context.
  • Lie.
  • Play dumb.
  • Goal-post remodelling.
  • more straw....
  • ...and now ad-hom.

Isn't there anyone out there that can explain the Democratic party leadership's "positive" and "well meaning" motives for crying defeat when our troops are at war?

-z
 
Huh? The guardian article does nothing to support your position. It merely highlights the fact that Carter correctly described Iraq as a quagmire (among other things wrong with you fundamentalists).

On second look, I realize that the whole point of this thread is an invention of your delusional imagination. Carter didn't eat "humble pie", he merely applied his dislike for fundamentalists (like you) to the situation in Iraq.

Oh...the list grows longer I see.
  • Denial of reality
  • more ad-hom

What a sad lot you guys are.

-z
 
Is the Guardian more to your liking? Next time remember to argue the evidence.
It's hard, since until now you hadn't provided any.

BTW, excellent article rik. I recommend everyone read it:

President Carter said:
In recent years, I have become increasingly concerned by a host of radical government policies that now threaten many basic principles espoused by all previous administrations, Democratic and Republican.
President Carter said:
At the same time, our political leaders have declared independence from the restraints of international organisations and have disavowed long-standing global agreements, including agreements on nuclear arms, control of biological weapons and the international system of justice.
President Carter said:
Instead of cherishing our role as the great champion of human rights, we now find civil liberties and personal privacy grossly violated under some extreme provisions of the Patriot Act.
President Carter said:
I am extremely concerned by a fundamentalist shift in many houses of worship and in government, as church and state have become increasingly intertwined in ways previously thought unimaginable.
Very convincing writing by a great man.
 
Let's see how the left leaning posters have defended the overtly defeatist Democratic leadership's political posturing during time of shooting war:
  • Argue from the poison well.
  • Beat up the strawman.
  • Muddy the waters by removing context.
  • Lie.
  • Play dumb.
  • Goal-post remodelling.
  • more straw....
  • ...and now ad-hom.

On the other hand, starting off with deliberately inflammatory language is a well respected debate tactic.

Oh wait.....


Isn't there anyone out there that can explain the Democratic party leadership's "positive" and "well meaning" motives for crying defeat when our troops are at war?

-z

Sure. Realism. Have we won? Does victory look imminent? Them having an election doesn't mean we have won. When car bombs and kidnappings stop being a routine occurance, THEN we might be able to claim victory, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
 
It's hard, since until now you hadn't provided any.

BTW, excellent article rik. I recommend everyone read it:





Very convincing writing by a great man.

I agree...'cept for all that pesky business about him being dead wrong and pessimistic to the point where depression sets in. Gee; no wonder Reagan beat the guy. What a self-righteous downer he is!

Show me a truly up-beat Dem...oh wait I forgot;

"YEE-AWWWWW!"

yeah; now I remember. :rolleyes:

-z
 
"leftist defeatism" is no more a fair statement than "right wing naziism". (Well, we'll leave Buchanan, Duke, and that bunch out for now.)

So, why is the "might makes right" crowd using it? Could it be that they simply wish to force people to their position? Could it be another attempt to falsely tar their opponents with FUD? News at 11!

I can't agree with JJ more here. Also, saying that the Democratic party is the "left" in this country is as false as saying that the fundamentalists christians are the "majority". The Democrats have been shooting themselves in the foot by saying that we need to pull out of Iraw immeadietly, and Carter's been proven wrong by the elections. Still, considering that it's Iraqi police and civilans who are taking the brunt of the danger over there, and its the Iraqi government who is doing all the organizing work, the republican administration can hardly take credit for this election. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats should take credit for the progress towards democracy in Iraq, because most of that work has been done by the Iraqis themselves. Both sides are full of hubris if they think they're in control.

As for the "leftist" thing, looking at the field from over here on the left, we don't have any representation in the federal government. The Republicans have total control over everything, and the Democrats agree with the Republicans on all the important issues. It's disorganized, kook filled and aimless over here. Don't blame us for the bickering, we don't have a voice.
 
I agree...'cept for all that pesky business about him being dead wrong and pessimistic to the point where depression sets in. Gee; no wonder Reagan beat the guy. What a self-righteous downer he is!

Show me a truly up-beat Dem...oh wait I forgot;

"YEE-AWWWWW!"

yeah; now I remember. :rolleyes:

-z

Pessimistic does not necessarily equate to wrong.
 
The fact remains that the democratic party has hitched it's political fortunes to failure and death for our soldiers in Iraq. They've backed the wrong horse...the terrorists...they should be deeply ashamed.

-z
Bull$$$$.
Partisan Bull$$$$.
You should be deeply ashamed.
 
On the other hand, starting off with deliberately inflammatory language is a well respected debate tactic.

Oh wait.....




Sure. Realism. Have we won? Does victory look imminent? Them having an election doesn't mean we have won. When car bombs and kidnappings stop being a routine occurance, THEN we might be able to claim victory, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

...scrape...scrape...scrape...
Damn! Those goalposts of yours are as fickle as the staircases at Hogwart's.
scrape...scrape...scrape...
-z
 
...scrape...scrape...scrape...
Damn! Those goalposts of yours are as fickle as the staircases at Hogwart's.
scrape...scrape...scrape...
-z

rikzilla, I've watched you be quite inflamtory in this thread, but these constant accusations of goal post moving are simply untrue. It's *further* criticism, not *changed* criticism. There's no shortage of things to criticize about the U.S. conduct of this war.
 
Bull$$$$.
Partisan Bull$$$$.
You should be deeply ashamed.

Temper, temper...

Tell me why my stance on this issue is shameful since I've already explained why yours is....

C'mon Bob...you can do it. Show us some substance...or must I go call HS4, Mephisto, or Tricky and ask them to give you guys a hand?

-z
 
You're wrong that anyone was poisoning the well. The Washington Times' credibility is germane.

But, more to the point, you are putting forth a pernicious Machiavellian argument, namely that the Democrats must act duplicitously in order to avoid benefitting from critical policy failures in Iraq. Do you really not see why some people might consider that highly unreasonable?

I can explain the Democratic party's motives: if we actually have failed (with regard to our original goals) in Iraq, it behooves us to recognize that fact and adjust expectations, rather than pretend that everything is just going to get better if we keep on throwing money and lives at the problem. This sort of post hoc error is pretty common in the corporate world, too; the problem isn't that the plan was critically flawed, it's that some people were critical of the plan. Why couldn't they just adopt the plan? The plan was going to work!

You are arguing (equivocally, that you might cry about straw men when called on it) that Democrats are commiting sedition by daring to criticize the war effort. Hell, if they succeed in ending the war, they're even profiteering on the subsequent deaths! Isn't it awful how people who are correct tend to benefit politically in democracies? We really must prevent that from happening.
 
It's clear that rik is trolling and masturbating his political ego in this thread.
 
...scrape...scrape...scrape...
Damn! Those goalposts of yours are as fickle as the staircases at Hogwart's.
scrape...scrape...scrape...
-z

Actually, the contention that Iraq would become a quagmire that would keep us fighting for years and years was a contention of opponents of the war before the war even started, and now even proponents of the war agree that we will have to be there for a long time to come. This is moving the goalpoasts......how? How many times from Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc, that the situation in Iraq was getting better, that the insurgency was 'in it's death throes', blah blah blah blah. It sounds more like you guys have moved the goal posts forward and we're just setting them back.
 
rikzilla, I've watched you be quite inflamtory in this thread, but these constant accusations of goal post moving are simply untrue. It's *further* criticism, not *changed* criticism. There's no shortage of things to criticize about the U.S. conduct of this war.

Nope...there are many instances of goal-postery in this thread. Please re-read and you'll see it. To many here there is simply nothing that GWB, "neocons", or the Repubs can do that would please them aside from mass resignations, "re-defeat", or a friendly pretzel in the throat. I'm merely pointing out what the democrats have done to sabotage victory in Iraq...hence I'm being attacked.

-z
 
Temper, temper...

Tell me why my stance on this issue is shameful since I've already explained why yours is....

C'mon Bob...you can do it. Show us some substance...or must I go call HS4, Mephisto, or Tricky and ask them to give you guys a hand?

-z
1 - You have explained nothing about my stance. I know you often try, but this not physically possible since this was my first post in this thread. I have to conclude that your temper has gotten out of hand.

You said: "The fact remains that the democratic party has hitched it's political fortunes to failure and death for our soldiers in Iraq. They've backed the wrong horse...the terrorists...they should be deeply ashamed."
I called your statement what it is.

The fact is that the democrats are critical of the Bush venture in Iraq. This is an idea that could be discussed. What you posted was partisan, frothing at the mouth, extremist bovine excrement.

2 - Then you said, as if backpeddling would improve the smell of your previous statement: "Why don't you simply look at my real argument; that the democrats have placed themselves to profit politically from defeat in Iraq". This is closer to something that can be discussed, but is still chocky jam full of steaming brown hate-mongering.

Politics is about power. Both parties play the game. On a skeptic board, you ought to at least try to not blindly support one side while at the same time making stuff up about the other. There are enough facts to consider without slobbering all over the discussion.
 
Show me a truly up-beat Dem.
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