Freedom of speech?

[smartcooky]

STANDING BY: RIGHT-WING MILITIA GROUPS & THE US ELECTION

https://acleddata.com/2020/10/21/standing-by-militias-election/

A very in depth report on the current danger of fascist street gangs, militia groups, and general reactionary violence.

I suppose a sufficiently large Biden (or Trump) landslide could largely defuse this danger, but a contested election seems ripe for militia types and associated reactionary groups to take action.

So much for Proud Boys being harmless. Perhaps Thermal will now recategorise them as Mostly Harmless!

 

[Mader Levap]

Minimize and deny. Thermal is doing fine job.

 

[phiwum]

Minimize and deny. Thermal is doing fine job.

You can disagree with him (?) without making him out to be a sleeper cell agent. I tend to think that he's underestimating the dangers of groups like the Proud Boys but I don't have any reason to think he's a secret supporter of them or the right wing in general.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Fascists want political power. These clowns don't. They are a social threat, like The Pagans or skinheads. A limited public threat, but not a political one. They are not the Reich on the hoof. In general, the pb's don't even interact with the general public. Their whole raison d'etre seems to be a half-assed Fight Club with antifa.

Let's see, a plot to kidnap and try a sitting governor of a US state is not political. Uh-huh. Nice gaslighting, there, Proud Boy.

 

[Thermal]

And here's the problem with your way of looking things... you miss the warning signs.

And here's the problem with your way of looking at things...you miss everything I am saying.

The pbs need to be watched, like any other violent group. Watched for escalation, increasing membership, political objectives, the works. Right now, and throughout their brief history, they don't amount to much. Let's hope it stays that way. But they are not The Fash, come to take over and usher in the New Reich. They are street brawlers, come to fight with other street brawlers. Like any gang, there are some seriously bad apples mixed in. But the organization as a whole is impotent. They don't even want anything but to raise some hell and talk about masturbation.

You should at the very least be concerned that a lawyer, that any lawyer, would be using a right wing criminal gang to surveil someone. What part of "Van Dyke used the Arizona chapter of the Proud Boys to conduct surveillance on a Phoenix man as part of a plot to either injure or murder him" do you find unconcerning?

Who said I find it unconcerning? I continue to find the proud boys to be impotent twats. In the story you reference, the prosecutor couldn't even get enough to make a grand jury move forward. And the proud boys did what, again? Allegedly conducted surveillance. They watched some guy, and nothing came of it. The ******* lawyer is still practicing, not even disbarred. If this story is some kind of silver bullet to show the proud boys muscle and menace, you make my point for me.

You seem to consider it to be of no consequence, overblown. I consider it a warning sign not to be missed. If you keep ignoring the warning signs, burying your head in the sand and dismissing all the minor bad things as smoke and mirrors and paper tigers, there will eventually come a time when you find that the smoke has dispersed, the mirror has broken, and the tiger has become real, with claws and fangs, and is trying to kill you.

And what is the warning you are seeing again? That the proud boys would look at someone for someone else, and nothing come of it? Yeah, quaking in my boots. The prosecutor couldn't come up with enough to convince a grand jury. That tells me they had very little but allegations. How much unquestioning faith do you have in this prosecutor, anyway?

They need to be watched, like any other hate group. But of all the candidates on the current stage, the proud boys seem the least powerful or influential. Hell, their own founder abandoned them for being pussies.

 

[Thermal]

So much for Proud Boys being harmless. Perhaps Thermal will now recategorise them as Mostly Harmless!

You seem impressed with that long article. Did you see anything new in it? I didn't. Says the pbs are mostly a street brawling group, and chronicles what we have already been over. What new information in this article impressed you so?

 

[Thermal]

You can disagree with him (?) without making him out to be a sleeper cell agent. I tend to think that he's underestimating the dangers of groups like the Proud Boys but I don't have any reason to think he's a secret supporter of them or the right wing in general.

Yes, him. I don't underestimate them, I don't think. I put them in their relative threat. Militia groups in particular concern me, because of armed preparation to enforce a political agenda, and a wide network of like-minded groups. The proud boys don't even have a political agenda; they want street fights with antifa. They are quite literally anti-antifa. but they lack the political motivation to be actual 'fa', if you catch my drift.

Let me ask you something: the OP story is about a proud boy rally (in disguise) and the violence that was brought down by their critics. What would the story look like if the critics simply ignored them? there were only a dozen or so of them in total. What were they going to do?

Not a damned thing, I would think. Without antifa, they are a bunch of wannabe tough guy bros having a circle jerk.

 

[Thermal]

Let's see, a plot to kidnap and try a sitting governor of a US state is not political. Uh-huh. Nice gaslighting, there, Proud Boy.

Um...

 

[smartcooky]

And here's the problem with your way of looking at things...you miss everything I am saying.

I have not missed anything you have been saying, i just completely disagree with it.

The pbs need to be watched, like any other violent group. Watched for escalation, increasing membership, political objectives, the works. Right now, and throughout their brief history, they don't amount to much. Let's hope it stays that way. But they are not The Fash, come to take over and usher in the New Reich.

At the risk of invoking Godwin, Hitler's NSDAP didn't amount to much either. They were incompetent, and considered to be a bunch of wannabe fools in the late 1920s, very much a joke; not to be taken seriously. They weren't "The Fash" until, oops, suddenly they were! It was too late by then.

They are street brawlers, come to fight with other street brawlers. Like any gang, there are some seriously bad apples mixed in. But the organization as a whole is impotent. They don't even want anything but to raise some hell and talk about masturbation.

So were the NSADAP. They got into street brawls with communists.

Who said I find it unconcerning? I continue to find the proud boys to be impotent twats. In the story you reference, the prosecutor couldn't even get enough to make a grand jury move forward. And the proud boys did what, again? Allegedly conducted surveillance. They watched some guy, and nothing came of it. The ******* lawyer is still practicing, not even disbarred. If this story is some kind of silver bullet to show the proud boys muscle and menace, you make my point for me.

That is misleading...

"The Texas Bar suspended Van Dyke’s law license in February 2019 and placed him on probation, requiring him to get mental health assistance.

Van Dyke’s license has since been reinstated."


But you know that!

 

[johnny karate]

All of the bothsiders in this thread wringing their hands over the normalization of violence because someone got punched in the face don’t seem to realize that their dismissive attitude towards and professed ignorance of right wing violence is exactly what normalizing violence looks like.

 

[Thermal]

All of the bothsiders in this thread wringing their hands over the normalization of violence because someone got punched in the face don’t seem to realize that their dismissive attitude towards and professed ignorance of right wing violence is exactly what normalizing violence looks like.

Is this the thread you meant to post this on? On this one, right wing violence is universally denounced by one and all. The subject here is some twat with no history of violence set up a legal speaking thing that no one showed up to, and had his teeth knocked out by the self-proclaimed good guys.

 

[johnny karate]

Is this the thread you meant to post this on? On this one, right wing violence is universally denounced by one and all. The subject here is some twat with no history of violence set up a legal speaking thing that no one showed up to, and had his teeth knocked out by the self-proclaimed good guys.

No, this is the right thread. I’ve watched you and other posters dismiss or claim to be unaware of the significance or existence of right wing violence.

That you think the lip service you pay to denouncing all violence somehow addresses that is part of the problem.

 

[Thermal]

...At the risk of invoking Godwin, Hitler's NSDAP didn't amount to much either. They were incompetent, and considered to be a bunch of wannabe fools in the late 1920s, very much a joke; not to be taken seriously. They weren't "The Fash" until, oops, suddenly they were! It was too late by then.

This is always my favorite. your argument here is that no matter how harmless a group demonstrably is, they must be attacked as if they were Hitler himself. Makes literally no difference if it is a group of pensioners playing bridge and knitting hats for the poor: you unilaterally declare them 'Future Nazis' and must be killed to save mankind. Lamest. Justification. Ever.

That is misleading...

"The Texas Bar suspended Van Dyke’s law license in February 2019 and placed him on probation, requiring him to get mental health assistance.

Van Dyke’s license has since been reinstated."


But you know that!

Right. He did so and met the Bar's requirements, and was found to be within the Bar's ethical standards. And?

 

[Thermal]

No, this is the right thread. I’ve watched you and other posters dismiss or claim to be unaware of the significance or existence of right wing violence.

That you think the lip service you pay to denouncing all violence somehow addresses that is part of the problem.

...? Right wing violence is the biggest threat we face in the US. I don't know what you are talking about, but am unwilling to argue with voices in your head.

 

[Mader Levap]

You can disagree with him (?) without making him out to be a sleeper cell agent. I tend to think that he's underestimating the dangers of groups like the Proud Boys but I don't have any reason to think he's a secret supporter of them or the right wing in general.

What reason do I have to give him benefit of doubt? There is no functional difference between idiot and someone that does it knowingly.

 

[Thermal]

What reason do I have to give him benefit of doubt? There is no functional difference between idiot and someone that does it knowingly.

#SelfAwareWolves

 

[Mader Levap]

#SelfAwareWolves

Protip for ya: I am from country that was playground for Nazis and Soviets. Millions of my kin (not to mention jews and rest of untermenshes) died.

Excuse me if I am not too hot on dismissing rising neonazi (and extreme right-wing in general) threat because they align ideologically with rethuglican degeneracy in your wacky country.

 

[Thermal]

Protip for ya: I am from country that was playground for Nazis and Soviets. Millions of my kin (not to mention jews and rest of untermenshes) died.

Excuse me if I am not too hot on dismissing rising neonazi (and extreme right-wing in general) threat because they align ideologically with rethuglican degeneracy in your wacky country.

Protip for ya: another nations history does not change the facts here. The facts, I am arguing, are that the proud boys are not on the top ten list of threatening groups. Without antifa to brawl against, they are nothing.

I'm far more concerned about even the rank-and-file Trump supporter. Their vote will actually move this nation in the wrong direction. A group of losers who do little more than talk about their dicks with each other and organize public showdowns with antifa are not our problem. They are not a political force. They are not The Fash. I am far more concerned with any group that has power, or is taking steps towards acquiring it. Armed militia groups are near the top of that list. The proud boys talking about their dicks are not.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

News out today that is relevant:

Boogaloo boy charged with riot for inciting the burning of the Minneapolis 3rd precinct. Was coordinating with the boogaloo in California that murdered a federal security guard in an ambush shooting and would later kill a deputy during an arrest attempt.

Right wing accelerationists trying to co-opt civil unrest to advocate their violent ideology.

Charges: Boogaloo Bois fired on Minneapolis police precinct, shouted 'Justice for Floyd'
Feds say Ivan Harrison Hunter helped burn and loot the Third Precinct building as part of a coordinated attack from the far-right group trying to ignite an American civil war.


Two hours after the police precinct was set on fire, Hunter texted with another Boogaloo member in California, a man named Steven Carillo.

“Go for police buildings,” Hunter told Carillo, according to charging documents.
“I did better lol,” he replied. A few hours earlier, Carillo had killed a Federal Protective Services Officer in Oakland, Calif., according to criminal charges filed against him in California.

https://www.startribune.com/charges-boogaloo-bois-fired-on-mpls-precinct-shouted-justice-for-floyd/572843802/

 

[Thermal]

News out today that is relevant:

Boogaloo boy charged with riot for inciting the burning of the Minneapolis 3rd precinct. Was coordinating with the boogaloo in California that murdered a federal security guard in an ambush shooting and would later kill a deputy during an arrest attempt.

Right wing accelerationists trying to co-opt civil unrest to advocate their violent ideology.



https://www.startribune.com/charges-boogaloo-bois-fired-on-mpls-precinct-shouted-justice-for-floyd/572843802/

There we go. Actual threatening groups posing a real threat. Not the proudies talking about how often they should handle their cocks while they engage in mutual street brawls.

Wrong thread for this one tho? Maybe Riots, Looting more on the theme?