Ulf Nereng
Muse
My guess: It's a Poe.
-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts
- Thread starter applecorped
- Start date
- Status
My guess: It's a Poe.
No, no. Like most of Sweden, he is seriously upset about what the facts are showing, so, much like Kellyanne Conway and her alternative facts, he is now producing false facts because he knows that the reality of Sweden's pandemic response is useless in the defense of the country's image.
However, in spite of the obvious similarities between Sweden's and USA's way of (not) tackling the actual pandemic and instead concerning themselves with the appearance, it would be wrong to accuse CC of channelling Trump: Sweden started lying about its pandemic response as early as the White House.
Tegnell was there from the very beginning. Scott Atlas didn't become Trump's chief advisor on Covid-19 untill August.
I don't remember when Anders Tegnell claimed that the virus would go away again in a month or so and not cause any serious problems in Sweden, but it was at least as early as the beginning of March.
ETA: Notice that he has now given up on comparing Sweden with New Zealand. All he has got left now is Denmark because he thinks I'm a fellow nationalist.
However, in spite of the obvious similarities between Sweden's and USA's way of (not) tackling the actual pandemic and instead concerning themselves with the appearance, it would be wrong to accuse CC of channelling Trump: Sweden started lying about its pandemic response as early as the White House.
Tegnell was there from the very beginning. Scott Atlas didn't become Trump's chief advisor on Covid-19 untill August.
I don't remember when Anders Tegnell claimed that the virus would go away again in a month or so and not cause any serious problems in Sweden, but it was at least as early as the beginning of March.
ETA: Notice that he has now given up on comparing Sweden with New Zealand. All he has got left now is Denmark because he thinks I'm a fellow nationalist.
Last edited:
Denmark:
Tivoli-gæster klager over for mange mennesker (TV2.dk, Oct. 16, 2020)
Visitors to Tivoli complain about too many people
’Ville ønske jeg ikke var gået i den sauna’: 42 elever smittet på højskole (DR.dk, Oct. 16, 2020)
’I wish I hadn’t gone into that sauna’: 42 students infected at (sports) high school
22 of them were in a group of 30 students who decided to use the sauna. I would have expected the temperatures to kill the virus before it could infect anybody, but sauna temperatures don't seem to do the trick, which is something other Scandinavians should notice.
- It is actually quite good that it is stable in Denmark when you look at what is happening in Europe, he says to Ritzau
Leading doctor: The corona situation is stable
The good doctor seems to miss the point that stable isn’t actually good when the numbers are as high as they are now. This as well as using a comparison with the situation in the rest of Europe to reassure himself and others that everything is fine is something we have been spared in Denmark so far. Winter is coming, so now is the time to get the numbers down.
ETA: Another Danish idiot:
- The level is considerably below what we see in other European countries, the leading doctor says.
451 new cases of coronavirus in the last 24 hours
Sweden:
Coronasmittad sjukhuspersonal arbetade i sex timmar på Sunderby sjukhus (SVT.se, Oct. 17, 2020)
Corona infected hospital staff was working for six hours at Sunderby hospital
”Situationen allvarlig” – allt fler vårdas på sjukhus (SVT.se, Oct. 16, 2020)
”The situation is serious” – an increasing number of hospitalizations
Fully booked in the mountains – Tegnell warns: Be prepared to cancel the (ski) holiday
(I hope that bar owners as well as the authorities in Ischgl, Austria, will be spending the winter months regretting that they chose to ignore the outbreak for the sake of business. I expect hotel rooms in Ischgl this winter to get even cheaper than in the rest of the world.)
Tivoli-gæster klager over for mange mennesker (TV2.dk, Oct. 16, 2020)
Visitors to Tivoli complain about too many people
’Ville ønske jeg ikke var gået i den sauna’: 42 elever smittet på højskole (DR.dk, Oct. 16, 2020)
’I wish I hadn’t gone into that sauna’: 42 students infected at (sports) high school
22 of them were in a group of 30 students who decided to use the sauna. I would have expected the temperatures to kill the virus before it could infect anybody, but sauna temperatures don't seem to do the trick, which is something other Scandinavians should notice.
Kasper Iversen, leading doctor at Herlev and Gentofte Hospital and professor of acute medicine, thinks that the corona situaton has been stable for a while.
- It is actually quite good that it is stable in Denmark when you look at what is happening in Europe, he says to Ritzau
Leading doctor: The corona situation is stable
The good doctor seems to miss the point that stable isn’t actually good when the numbers are as high as they are now. This as well as using a comparison with the situation in the rest of Europe to reassure himself and others that everything is fine is something we have been spared in Denmark so far. Winter is coming, so now is the time to get the numbers down.
ETA: Another Danish idiot:
Henrik Ullum, a leading doctor at the Rigshospitalet, thinks that the corona contagion is still stable in Denmark.
- The level is considerably below what we see in other European countries, the leading doctor says.
451 new cases of coronavirus in the last 24 hours
Sweden:
Coronasmittad sjukhuspersonal arbetade i sex timmar på Sunderby sjukhus (SVT.se, Oct. 17, 2020)
Corona infected hospital staff was working for six hours at Sunderby hospital
”Situationen allvarlig” – allt fler vårdas på sjukhus (SVT.se, Oct. 16, 2020)
”The situation is serious” – an increasing number of hospitalizations
We must be prepared for (ski) trips to be cancelled on very short notice, says Anders Tegnell to Aftonbladet TV.
Fully booked in the mountains – Tegnell warns: Be prepared to cancel the (ski) holiday
(I hope that bar owners as well as the authorities in Ischgl, Austria, will be spending the winter months regretting that they chose to ignore the outbreak for the sake of business. I expect hotel rooms in Ischgl this winter to get even cheaper than in the rest of the world.)
Last edited:
Childlike Empress
Banned
In other words, now that Sweden and Denmark are on par, dann lets out that the "solution" is to send all "sick" people to the Gulag.
Sick people aren't sick, they're "sick," and protecting people from getting infected and hospitalizing those who get ill = Gulag. Grow up!
Meanwhile, yet another idiot dies of Covid-19:
Meanwhile, yet another idiot dies of Covid-19:
Last edited:
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 1,765
...jokes are supposed to be funny, Maxine.
My apologies. The fact your initial post (and the subsequent post) that you made regarding the Victoria diversion quoted nobody obviously means you weren't talking to anyone in this thread which explains why your post seemed to be arguing a strawman. Its clear you weren't talking to anyone here, you were just yelling randomly at nobody, shaking your fist in the air, telling unfunny jokes for an audience of one. And that's okay. You do you.
I only quoted the (alleged) "joke" because the joke was representative of your post. As this seemed to confuse you, I'll quote the entire exchange for clarity.
Does that clear things up for you?
(Quoted in full to remove any ambiguity)
You know perfectly well that nobody here is praising the mistakes that were made both prior to and shortly after the start of the recent outbreak. So you can stop pretending that this is what this is all about.
The reality is that Covid-19 is a very tricky virus. Because New Zealand has been able to eliminate, that means the few cases in the community we are seeing are all edge cases that show just how tricky the virus can be. After months of investigation we still don't know how the Americold outbreak started. The maintenance worker outbreak was traced back to an elevator button. The Christchurch Isolation case was traced back to a rubbish bin.
You need extraordinary controls in place in order to keep Covid-19 at bay. And New Zealand have gotten very very good at it: but even we couldn't stop these edge cases from happening.
So an outbreak from the Victoria Isolation Facilities was something that was always likely to happen. Because Covid is a tricky virus. And you can have the best protocols in place and the virus will still find a way to get through.
Of course, we now know the protocols in place in Victoria weren't the best. And it was the failure at the isolation facilities that caused the recent outbreak. And (IMHO) it was the failure to act quickly and decisively, and the attempt to have extremely localised quarantines (apartment blocks instead of regional) that allowed the outbreak to get out of control.
But there's an important thing to think about here. I don't know the specifics of what happened in Victoria or Australia in the planning and the lead up to the creation of the Isolation facilities. But thanks to huge data-dumps from the New Zealand government we have a very clear picture of what happened behind the scenes here. The Pandemic Papers at the NZ Herald are available at the below link: its paywalled but a couple of dollars for the insides story.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid...early-came-undone/PQIYAZGNM356D7ESOS5SMPHW4Y/
The title of that story is "No easy choices: the inside story of how our cobbled together lockdown nearly came undone."
And the title says it all really. We didn't have years to create our response to the pandemic. We had weeks. In some cases days. The alert system was invented from scratch after a musing from the Prime Minister. We had major supply problems with testing reagents, at one stage we only had enough supplies to keep testing going for less than a week. Laws had to be rewritten. New finance policy introduced to maintain continuity of business. They had to figure out how the managed isolation facilities would work. Hotels and motels had to be completely repurposed. And all of this was happening while Covid was spreading through the country.
It was a superhuman effort by an under-resourced public sector, policy documents that typically would take months or even years to produce had to be created in days. And everybody played a part. From the doctors and nurses to the supermarket workers to people like me (where all I had to do was stay home for six weeks). Our response was cobbled together out of nothing. And it was so fragile it could have fallen apart so easily.
And the same thing would have happened in Victoria. With the added complication that Victoria isn't a country but a state, and had to work within the confines of Federal governance. The Victoria outbreak happened a few weeks before the New Zealand outbreak. We learnt a lesson from the mistakes that Victoria made and it made it easier to contain the NZ outbreak. But if the New Zealand outbreak had happened first the roles may well have been reversed: it could have been New Zealand dealing with a death toll of hundreds and Victoria, learning from out mistakes, being able to dodge the bullet.
Its a global pandemic. Everybody is (to a degree) flying by the seat of their pants. The decision making process is going to be imperfect. Mistakes are going to be inevitable and unavoidable because the scale of what needed to be done was just so extraordinarily large. Small mistakes can have devastating consequences. Sometimes you get lucky and you can fix a small mistake before it gets out of hand. But Victoria didn't get lucky here.
So lets go back to the original post that you were probably responding too (we don't know because you didn't quote it.)
The context of this quote is pretty clear. lionking wasn't talking about the mistakes that lead to the outbreak. lionking wasn't talking about the mistakes in the initial containment or the length of time it took to lockdown. Because Covid is a tricky virus. And once you let the genie out of the bottle its extremely hard to get it back in.
lionking is talking about going from 700 infections per day in August to practically none today. Being able to accomplish that is an example of extraordinary governance. It wasn't something that just magically happened. We can look to places all over the world that rely on "magical thinking", from the US to the UK, where it almost looks like if you "wish hard enough" that Covid will simply stop spreading. It doesn't work that way. To bring Covid under control so many different things had to happen and if any one of those things weren't done properly then the whole thing falls apart. Think of all the different moving parts that had to come together to make this work. From the public service to testing labs working overtime to supermarket workers to contact tracers to the people that had to stay home.
So here's the thing. I know you were telling "a joke." But your joke **** all over the hundreds of people that lost their lives, it **** all over the thousands of people who had to pull together to accomplish an extraordinary feat. As bad as the death toll got in Victoria it had the potential to be so much worse.
And lionking's larger point (which, in your rush to make an unfunny joke you managed to miss) is that if Victoria can do it: then everywhere could do it if they really wanted to. Its a simple template, similar to what we did here, that any city or province or country could implement. You just need the political will to do so.
Clutch Cargo
Muse
Something like that ...
Attachments
Last edited:
But nobody surpasses Anders Tegnell in this game. Here's one from the master of spin:
Can we put a positive spin on a rising number of infections, Anders?!
Yes we can!
Anders Tegnell: ”Vi ser en avtagande ökning” (Expressen.se, Oct. 15, 2020)
Anders Tegnell: "We are seeing a decreasing increase"
No wonder the Swedes are confused:
Både gas och broms – coronabesked spretar (Sydsvenskan.se, Oct. 18, 2020)
Both speeder and brakes – ambiguous information about corona
This afternoon, Dagens Nyheter published the criticism of Maciej Zaremba's article by Björn Eriksson and Johan Bratt, two of the people in charge of elderly care in Stockholm:
Replik: ”Zaremba har fel om äldrevården” (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 18, 2020)
”Zaremba is wrong about the elderly care”
And Zaremba's answer:
”De hänvisar inte till det dokument jag har skrivit om” (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 18, 2020)
"They don't refer to the document I wrote about"
Unfortunately, the articles are behind a pay wall.
The number of students infected after 30 of them were in a sauna is now 62: I very much regret that I went into that sauna (TV2.dk, Oct. 18, 2020)
As I have said a couple of times recently: Sweden is changing its strategy and abandoning herd immunity. However, since Tegnell has been awfully upset whenever other countries have adjusted their pandemic strategies, Sweden seems to be hoping that nobody will notice what is happening.
And now even the most draconian and tyrannical of all measures is on the table: Lockdowns!!!
I will refrain from using the laughing dog here, in respect for the 6,000 dead and the many - who knows how many? - long-haulers; it's really no laughing matter.
So welcome back,
For a while there, we feared that you were a lost cause.
And now even the most draconian and tyrannical of all measures is on the table: Lockdowns!!!
I will refrain from using the laughing dog here, in respect for the 6,000 dead and the many - who knows how many? - long-haulers; it's really no laughing matter.
So welcome back,
For a while there, we feared that you were a lost cause.
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
Im hardly going to praise a government that caused a second wave in the state that dwarfed the entire country’s infections up to that point.
So you’re unable to actually defend the “arsonist assisting firemen = hero“ premise, all you can respond with is personal insults.
Your “reasoned argument” is so compelling
I just happen to live in a state where our government planned and then managed not to cause a new wave of infections many orders of magnitude more deadly and severe like that which the Victorian government managed to do.
Last edited:
Clutch Cargo
Muse
WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19)
Data last updated:2020/10/18, 2:43pm CEST
Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:
U.S. 69,834
Australia 12
Sweden 0
Denmark 500
New Zealand 3
Amazing that Denmark can continue being the biggest loser, day after day. Denmark’s tally has gone up by ONE HUNDRED new cases since yesterday! Not good, Denmark. Not good at all. The other countries are fairly steady, and Sweden, wait for it ……. remains at ZERO. Sweden has pretty much “eliminated” the virus, it would seem. I mean, if you believe that “elimination” has been achieved by anyone then I guess it would be Sweden. But I’m sure that everyone knows by now that the “elimination” fantasy is a hoax, whether it be Sweden or New Zealand. Then there is the question of Sweden’s zero new cases as is being reported nearly daily. There is talk about whether or not Sweden is reporting its new cases as diligently as would be expected. Well, if you’ve been following my dedicated daily reports as I have faithfully and accurately been quoting directly from WHO, then you ‘ll know that I have reported a couple of incidents that show Sweden as having new cases. Sweden, after all, has a distinct lack of restrictions in place so I don’t think it is any surprise that Sweden does record new cases of the virus as opposed to Denmark that not only has a great number of restrictions but has actually increased them. The funny thing is (ought I say “interesting” because it isn't really funny at all) is that Denmark is reporting more new per capita cases of the virus than Sweden! And ….. Denmark's cases are increasing by leaps and bounds! Kudos to Denmark for being honest about it. So, one can look at the dilemma from two points of fact:
1). Sweden's lack of restrictions has not entirely proved itself in combating the Corona virus.
2). Despite Sweden’s lack of restrictions it is fairing much better than Denmark where restrictions are choking the population.
Hypothesis: Implementing restrictions (on its own) is probably not the answer to “eliminating” the Corona virus. Doesn’t that go without saying?
Data last updated:2020/10/18, 2:43pm CEST
Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:
U.S. 69,834
Australia 12
Sweden 0
Denmark 500
New Zealand 3
Amazing that Denmark can continue being the biggest loser, day after day. Denmark’s tally has gone up by ONE HUNDRED new cases since yesterday! Not good, Denmark. Not good at all. The other countries are fairly steady, and Sweden, wait for it ……. remains at ZERO. Sweden has pretty much “eliminated” the virus, it would seem. I mean, if you believe that “elimination” has been achieved by anyone then I guess it would be Sweden. But I’m sure that everyone knows by now that the “elimination” fantasy is a hoax, whether it be Sweden or New Zealand. Then there is the question of Sweden’s zero new cases as is being reported nearly daily. There is talk about whether or not Sweden is reporting its new cases as diligently as would be expected. Well, if you’ve been following my dedicated daily reports as I have faithfully and accurately been quoting directly from WHO, then you ‘ll know that I have reported a couple of incidents that show Sweden as having new cases. Sweden, after all, has a distinct lack of restrictions in place so I don’t think it is any surprise that Sweden does record new cases of the virus as opposed to Denmark that not only has a great number of restrictions but has actually increased them. The funny thing is (ought I say “interesting” because it isn't really funny at all) is that Denmark is reporting more new per capita cases of the virus than Sweden! And ….. Denmark's cases are increasing by leaps and bounds! Kudos to Denmark for being honest about it. So, one can look at the dilemma from two points of fact:
1). Sweden's lack of restrictions has not entirely proved itself in combating the Corona virus.
2). Despite Sweden’s lack of restrictions it is fairing much better than Denmark where restrictions are choking the population.
Hypothesis: Implementing restrictions (on its own) is probably not the answer to “eliminating” the Corona virus. Doesn’t that go without saying?
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
Quoting Sweden's new cases only on days with no report won't change the fact that it is having a big surge. To be fair, much of the rest of Europe is too. That's a failure of all the countries involved, including Sweden.
WHO Health Emergency Dashboard: Sweden
Meanwhile...
New Zealand Ministry of Health:- COVID-19: Current cases
And bad news for 'herd immunity' in Sweden: -
Sweden confirms its first case of coronavirus reinfection
Attachments
Clutch Cargo
Muse
“To date, there have been six published cases of COVID-19 reinfection, with various other unverified accounts from around the world. Although this is a comparably small fraction of the millions of people known to have been infected, should we be concerned?”
“We are still learning about the immune response to COVID-19, and every piece of new data is helping us unpick the puzzle of this challenging virus. Our immune system is a powerful ally in the fight against infection, and only by unlocking it can we ultimately hope to defeat COVID-19.”
https://theconversation.com/coronav...now-so-far-and-the-vital-missing-clues-147960
“We are still learning about the immune response to COVID-19, and every piece of new data is helping us unpick the puzzle of this challenging virus. Our immune system is a powerful ally in the fight against infection, and only by unlocking it can we ultimately hope to defeat COVID-19.”
https://theconversation.com/coronav...now-so-far-and-the-vital-missing-clues-147960
Last edited:
CC missed the title of the article. Deliberately, I think: Coronavirus reinfection cases: what we know so far – and the vital missing clues
But no need to worry about reinfections. Anders Tegnell is on top of it:
This is a commentary of another study that shows that antibodies after a Covid infection may disappear after only a couple of weeks.
(...)
However, you can probably say that the vast majority of people, maybe 99 percent, are protected at least for six months and with high probability even longer, considering that we see so extremely few reinfections, less than ten so far that are properly described, says Anders Tegnell.
Considering that CC pretends to know that we know absolutely nothing, it's impressive to see how much Sweden's top epidemiologist already thinks he knows about the high probability that a new infectious disease, barely seven months old in Sweden, will make 99 percent of the cases immune for even longer than six months. Only a scientist from the country that rewards the world's most exquisite scientists with the Nobel Prize annually could come up with astonishing insights like this.
Anders Tegnell not only wants it to be true, he needs it to be true. It's all he's got going for his excellent pandemic strategy: It may have killed 6,000 Swedes, but that was the sacrifice we (= they!) had to pay for Sweden going about its daily business without a care in the world.
Now even the Swedes who already had the disease will worry about getting reinfected, and the long-haulers will worry if it is going to make them even sicker the second time around:
But no need to worry about reinfections. Anders Tegnell is on top of it:
– Antibodies are just one of many different parameters that work well in some diseases, but worse in others, and they probably don't work very well at the level of individuals in the case of Covid-19. So it will always be very difficult to tell if a certain individual is still immune or not, Anders Tegnell says to TT.
This is a commentary of another study that shows that antibodies after a Covid infection may disappear after only a couple of weeks.
(...)
However, you can probably say that the vast majority of people, maybe 99 percent, are protected at least for six months and with high probability even longer, considering that we see so extremely few reinfections, less than ten so far that are properly described, says Anders Tegnell.
Considering that CC pretends to know that we know absolutely nothing, it's impressive to see how much Sweden's top epidemiologist already thinks he knows about the high probability that a new infectious disease, barely seven months old in Sweden, will make 99 percent of the cases immune for even longer than six months. Only a scientist from the country that rewards the world's most exquisite scientists with the Nobel Prize annually could come up with astonishing insights like this.
Anders Tegnell not only wants it to be true, he needs it to be true. It's all he's got going for his excellent pandemic strategy: It may have killed 6,000 Swedes, but that was the sacrifice we (= they!) had to pay for Sweden going about its daily business without a care in the world.
Now even the Swedes who already had the disease will worry about getting reinfected, and the long-haulers will worry if it is going to make them even sicker the second time around:
Good news for the stockholders of vaccine manufacturers.
Last edited:
A lot of the upswing in cases does coincide with schools reopening.
The idea of class bubbles is great as long as no kids in the bubble have siblings in different classes or schools.
In effect the 4-18 year old education system is a network that links kids, parents, and staff in a giant bubble throughout a country.
The rate of infection seems to have gone up in all countries when schools were reopened after lockdowns. Sweden, however, ...
And it shows:
I bet Trump and Scott Atlas love that report ...
And it shows:
* from Sweden's Public Health Agency: Covid-19 in schoolchildren – A comparison between Finland and Sweden
I bet Trump and Scott Atlas love that report ...
Last edited:
Maybe you should make a thread exclusively about the Czech pandemic response. Unfortunately, the Czech Republic seems to be a good example of how dangerous it is to let the infection rate get out of hand:
DR,the Danish public broadcaster, will be airing a documentary tonight, which includes the remarkable statistic that as many as 70% of the early Danish Corona-cases (750 samples taken from the end of February to early May) can trace its origins to the outbreak in Ischgl, the Austrian alpine ski resort which has subsequently become notorious for its, shall we say, laissez faire approach to containing the virus.
Edit: I'm watching it on-demand at the moment, as I'm working tonight. It also poses the question why it took four days from the time Icelandic authorities warned about the Ischgl outbreak, until Danish authorities acted upon the information.
Edit: I'm watching it on-demand at the moment, as I'm working tonight. It also poses the question why it took four days from the time Icelandic authorities warned about the Ischgl outbreak, until Danish authorities acted upon the information.
Last edited:
- Status