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Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

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The scale of the graph is odd, but isn't it in your favor, in a sense? If it were proportional, it would show a far steeper and more telling change. As it is now, it minimizes the enormousness and the suddenness of the change. If it were proportional, the only printable form would show the lower end as virtually flat, since the graph would have to be over 1000 units high.


No, it isn't "in my favour" (which is being honest with data), because it makes the deaths seem way closer to the "cases" than they are in reality. And again, you have to put it into proportion to the amounts of tests being done - that is where they usually get their "second wave" from. I'm pretty sure that that is the case here as well. False positives due to people going to the tests with symptoms of the "summer flu" in temperatures no corona virus will ever survive.
 
Psiram (.com, not .de) is not a "skeptics blog", it is a smear campaign that is waiting to go up in flames when finally it is unveiled who is putting so much effort into staying anonymous while slandering and libeling people who don't fit their agenda (pharma lobbying). Which will be soon. Law suits will be abundant.


Apart from trying to discredit the critics, do you have any actual comments on the criticism?

I also wonder who is the “pharma” industry that is lobbying here, because as far as I know, there is nothing the Pharma industry can sell to counter COVID-19.
 
Apart from trying to discredit the critics, do you have any actual comments on the criticism?

I also wonder who is the “pharma” industry that is lobbying here, because as far as I know, there is nothing the Pharma industry can sell to counter COVID-19.


First the bunk, then the debunk. You go and watch Dr. Schiffmann's video and come up with a critique of his arguments. Then, maybe, I will comment on the obviously nonsensical, stereotypical labeling Psiram junk, or on your likely more qualified arguments.
 
The scale of the graph is odd, but isn't it in your favor, in a sense? If it were proportional, it would show a far steeper and more telling change. As it is now, it minimizes the enormousness and the suddenness of the change. If it were proportional, the only printable form would show the lower end as virtually flat, since the graph would have to be over 1000 units high.

Oh, was the criticism *really* of me using a log plot? For something where we are looking at ratios?

Wherever you are in the graph, a constant vertical distance represents a constant multiplication so, for example between any two adjacent major gridlines, it's 10x, the distance between the major gridline and the first minor gridline is 2x etc.
 
I've updated my comparison of Scandinavia and the US with the ECDC data from today.


View attachment 42874

Still not sure Sweden is a model to follow

Only about 631 people below 70 have died from the virus
Apparently everybody above 70 were immortal before covid 19

50233446308_a718c183f7_c_d.jpg

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/
 
Only about 631 people below 70 have died from the virus
Apparently everybody above 70 were immortal before covid 19

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50233446308_a718c183f7_c_d.jpg[/qimg]
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/

What kind of douchebag country is Sweden? Nice to know that as soon as I retire I am seen as expendable, in fact, some see it as my duty to die.

How is Sweden's economy? Oh wait! It sucks just like every other economy. So way more deaths per capita and still an equally bad economy. What was the point of all those extra deaths again?

**** you, Sweden!
 
What kind of douchebag country is Sweden? Nice to know that as soon as I retire I am seen as expendable, in fact, some see it as my duty to die.

How is Sweden's economy? Oh wait! It sucks just like every other economy. So way more deaths per capita and still an equally bad economy. What was the point of all those extra deaths again?

**** you, Sweden!

While Europe plunged into a deep recession, Sweden did not.
In contrast to other European nations, Sweden’s economy actually grew slightly in the first quarter; and while second quarter results are less positive, they also nevertheless show that Sweden is an economic outlier.
While no nation has emerged unscathed from the coronavirus crisis, which has resulted in hundreds of millions of job losses and millions of business closures following widespread government-imposed shutdowns, data show the Swedish economy has been hit much less than the rest of Europe.

Legacy media have repeatedly reported that Sweden is not escaping the economic carnage brought by ‪#COVID19‬ even though it didn't lockdown.

That's true.

But it's also true that ‪#Sweden‬ has suffered far less economic damage than other European nations.

See the latest COVID-19 information on Twitter
While Sweden saw a historic economic contraction in the second quarter, the 8.6 percent decline was less than half that of the United Kingdom (-19.1 percent) and Spain (-18.5). By the way, Sweden has also suffered fewer COVID-19 deaths per capita than both Spain and the UK, even though both Spain and the UK had strict government lockdowns.
Sweden’s GDP drop is also far milder than nations such as Portugal (-14.1 percent), France (-13.8 percent), Belgium (-12.2 percent), and Italy (-12.4 percent), and even tops Germany (-10.1 percent), one of Europe’s COVID-19 success stories.
Overall, the EU saw an 11.9 percent GDP drop in the second quarter, about 40 percent higher than that of Sweden.
"It is, as expected, a dramatic downturn,” Nordea bank chief analyst Torbjorn Isaksson told the BBC. “But compared to other countries, [Sweden’s economy] is considerably better, for instance, if you compare to southern Europe."

https://fee.org/articles/bbc-sweden...-rest-of-the-eu-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/
 
You keep say they but can’t explain why they have flattened the curve


Unlike its neighboring countries, Sweden flattened the curve by letting 5,000 people die and by letting the vulnerable hide in their homes to avoid the virus because Sweden, led by Anders Tegnell and Johan Gisecke, left it to old people to find their own solutions to dealing with the pandemic. And the vulnerable are going to have to do a lot more hiding until the vaccines are there.

Your flattening-the-curve fetichism makes you unable to understand what was supposed to be the point of flattening the curve. It wasn't to prevent people from getting infected (and a lot of those people from dying). The flattening-the-curve strategy expected everybody to get the infection sooner or later and merely intended to slow down the transmission, so the health-care system wouldn't get overwhelmed: Like this (Wikipedia).
It's the reason why Anders Tegnell and Johan Giesecke are still hoping that the virus will run wild all over the rest of the world, so their predictions can come true: Winter is coming!
And it's the reason why Anders Tegnell declared that what New Zealand managed to do was "impossible!" (4 deaths per million, but they are still 'dancing'.)

But that is not what happened in Sweden: Sweden's health-care system was overwhelmed to the extent where they even stopped hospitalizing old people (and some not so old), they stopped examining old people, they practiced long-distance triage and prescribed palliative care, i.e. letting people die on opiates instead of trying to help them survive the disease. The other half of the strategy's (alleged) intention was to protect old people from getting infected while everybody else got Covid-19, most of whom would survive. And we all know how that went: Old people weren't protected and so many of them died that the excess mortality is very obvious in the Swedish statistics for a couple of months.

So Sweden's flattening-the-curve strategy failed miserably - even on its own terms - and obviously much worse than the other Nordic countries because Denmark, the Faroe Islands, Finland, Greenland, Iceland and Norway soon abandoned that strategy for the Hammer & the Dance (Medium, March 19, 2020).
Cumulative number of coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths in the Nordic countries (Statista.com, Aug. 13, 2020)
Actually, the Faroe Islands, Greenland and Iceland never bought into the idiotic flattening-the-curve strategy and started hammering immediately.

The curve of any disease will eventually flatten - sometimes by having millions die. Fortunately, the Covid-19's rate of fatality doesn't come anywhere near the worst killers.


ETA: Those of Sweden's researchers who are subservient to Tegnell and Giesecke have a brilliant way of defending the Swedish strategy:
The strategy was to flatten the curve, not overwhelm health care capacity. That seems to have worked. If you take care homes out of the equation, things actually look much brighterHelena Nordenstedt
Clinical epidemiologist and researcher in global health
Did Sweden's coronavirus strategy succeed or fail? (BBC, July 24, 2020)

Yes, if you don't look at all the dead people in Swedish nursing homes, things do indeed look brighter! Considering that we are talking about a strategy that mainly kills the elderly, this is an approach that can be used everywhere. For instance, if you don't consider all the dead people, WW2 wasn't as bad as it is usually made out to be. A lot of young people got to see other parts of the world, all expenses paid by their governments. What's not to like about young people getting to know other places and nationalities?
 
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While Europe plunged into a deep recession, Sweden did not.
In contrast to other European nations, Sweden’s economy actually grew slightly in the first quarter; and while second quarter results are less positive, they also nevertheless show that Sweden is an economic outlier.
While no nation has emerged unscathed from the coronavirus crisis, which has resulted in hundreds of millions of job losses and millions of business closures following widespread government-imposed shutdowns, data show the Swedish economy has been hit much less than the rest of Europe.


You appear to be unaware that the pandemic was only just starting in most of Europe (apart from Italy) "in the first quarter."
And what exactly are you talking about when you mention "the rest of Europe"??!

5 grunde til at økonomer er optimistiske trods værste fald i dansk økonomi (TV2.dk, Aug. 14, 2020)
5 reasons why economists are optimistic in spite of the Danish economy's worst recession ever - The Nordic and Baltic countries seem to be doing fine, with Finland doing best and Sweden worst.

Sweden's unemployment rate of 9% remains the highest in the Nordics, up from 7.1% in March.
Did Sweden's coronavirus strategy succeed or fail? (BBC, July 24, 2020)
 
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What kind of douchebag country is Sweden? Nice to know that as soon as I retire I am seen as expendable, in fact, some see it as my duty to die.

How is Sweden's economy? Oh wait! It sucks just like every other economy. So way more deaths per capita and still an equally bad economy. What was the point of all those extra deaths again?


You and I rarely see eye to eye on things, but in this case it is so damned obvious that Sweden has let down the elderly. Unfortunately, the authoritarian thinking of most Swedes doesn't let them acknowledge the fact and do something about the actual problem. Being in denial about it seems to be an integral part of the Swedish 'strategy'.
 
Saturday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 15, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 572 (5,783) 442* 31 *according to SVT.se Sweden doesn’t register until Monday.
Denmark: 107 (621) 134 0 According to TV2.dk
Finland: 60 (333) 11 0
Norway: 48 (261*) 40 2 *four deaths keep appearing and disappearing. Now they are back again.
Iceland: 29 (10) 12 1
Iceland has 121 active cases, Faroe Islands 147, New Zealand 69.
The Faroe Islands have 700+ in quarantine, no tests awaiting results, no hospitalizations. They seem to be on top of it again.
 
First the bunk, then the debunk. You go and watch Dr. Schiffmann's video and come up with a critique of his arguments.
Sorry, I don’t do YouTube. If he has arguments, I am sure he has them in written form somewhere. I can try to look for them tonight, but if you have a link, I’ll gladly read it.
 
He seems to prefer videos. It's not like he would stand a chance of getting published if he sent his drivel to peer-reviewed science magazines ...
There are a couple of links in my post 1784.
The German skeptics in Gesellschaft zur wissenschaftlichen Untersuchung von Parawissenschaften e.V. (GWUP) have also written about him a couple of times. Try googling "Bodo Schiffmann" + GWUP or use GWUP's own search engine.

It's good that only the insignificant minority of the lunatic fringe in Denmark listen to Vibeke Manniche and Søren Ventegodt. :)
 
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First the bunk, then the debunk. You go and watch Dr. Schiffmann's video and come up with a critique of his arguments. Then, maybe, I will comment on the obviously nonsensical, stereotypical labeling Psiram junk, or on your likely more qualified arguments.

Normally, this sounds like a good idea.

Prediction:

In your case, if someone will invest precious lifetime debunking the worthless bs Schiffmann is claiming, you will just answer: "No, you are wrong". :rolleyes:
 
Saturday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 15, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 572 (5,783) 442* 31 *according to SVT.se Sweden doesn’t register until Monday.
Denmark: 107 (621) 134 0 According to TV2.dk
Finland: 60 (333) 11 0
Norway: 48 (261*) 40 2 *four deaths keep appearing and disappearing. Now they are back again.
Iceland: 29 (10) 12 1
Iceland has 121 active cases, Faroe Islands 147, New Zealand 69.
The Faroe Islands have 700+ in quarantine, no tests awaiting results, no hospitalizations. They seem to be on top of it again.

An idea, could you include Czech numbers too?
 
First the bunk, then the debunk. You go and watch Dr. Schiffmann's video and come up with a critique of his arguments. Then, maybe, I will comment on the obviously nonsensical, stereotypical labeling Psiram junk, or on your likely more qualified arguments.


Well, I honestly tried to find dr Schiffmann’s arguments in writing, but it seems that it is impossible. Instead I read the description of his videos in correctiv.org. It seems to be just as bad as I expected: politically determined viewpoint, no fact-checking, and over-interpretation of results.

I anticipated that he had not considered excess mortality, and it fits with his main argument about fewer people dying of COVID-19 than reported, and those that die, would die anyway. Both arguments have been shown to be wrong by research.
 
Unlike its neighboring countries, Sweden flattened the curve by letting 5,000 people die and by letting the vulnerable hide in their homes to avoid the virus because Sweden, led by Anders Tegnell and Johan Gisecke, left it to old people to find their own solutions to dealing with the pandemic. And the vulnerable are going to have to do a lot more hiding until the vaccines are there.

Your flattening-the-curve fetichism makes you unable to understand what was supposed to be the point of flattening the curve. It wasn't to prevent people from getting infected (and a lot of those people from dying). The flattening-the-curve strategy expected everybody to get the infection sooner or later and merely intended to slow down the transmission, so the health-care system wouldn't get overwhelmed: Like this (Wikipedia).
It's the reason why Anders Tegnell and Johan Giesecke are still hoping that the virus will run wild all over the rest of the world, so their predictions can come true: Winter is coming!
And it's the reason why Anders Tegnell declared that what New Zealand managed to do was "impossible!" (4 deaths per million, but they are still 'dancing'.)

But that is not what happened in Sweden: Sweden's health-care system was overwhelmed to the extent where they even stopped hospitalizing old people (and some not so old), they stopped examining old people, they practiced long-distance triage and prescribed palliative care, i.e. letting people die on opiates instead of trying to help them survive the disease. The other half of the strategy's (alleged) intention was to protect old people from getting infected while everybody else got Covid-19, most of whom would survive. And we all know how that went: Old people weren't protected and so many of them died that the excess mortality is very obvious in the Swedish statistics for a couple of months.
You carrying on as if everyone over 70 where immortal before covid 19 in Sweden when in fact they had no excess deaths this



So Sweden's flattening-the-curve strategy failed miserably - even on its own terms - and obviously much worse than the other Nordic countries because Denmark, the Faroe Islands, Finland, Greenland, Iceland and Norway soon abandoned that strategy for the Hammer & the Dance (Medium, March 19, 2020).
Cumulative number of coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths in the Nordic countries (Statista.com, Aug. 13, 2020)
Actually, the Faroe Islands, Greenland and Iceland never bought into the idiotic flattening-the-curve strategy and started hammering immediately.

The curve of any disease will eventually flatten - sometimes by having millions die. Fortunately, the Covid-19's rate of fatality doesn't come anywhere near the worst killers.
You keep saying would have flattened eventually yes but it’s one the few that has during this still ongoing pandemic

ETA: Those of Sweden's researchers who are subservient to Tegnell and Giesecke have a brilliant way of defending the Swedish strategy:


Yes, if you don't look at all the dead people in Swedish nursing homes, things do indeed look brighter! Considering that we are talking about a strategy that mainly kills the elderly, this is an approach that can be used everywhere. For instance, if you don't consider all the dead people, WW2 wasn't as bad as it is usually made out to be. A lot of young people got to see other parts of the world, all expenses paid by their governments. What's not to like about young people getting to know other places and nationalities?

let’s compare deaths per million, stacked by month, Y2D 2020, to 1990-2019

50236602968_8393e7b304_c_d.jpg

these data only run to July 29th for 2020, *and* that the last 7-10 days might get slightly revised, it’s still reasonable to state that thus far,* all cause deaths in Sweden for 2020 Y2D are… quite “Normal”… nothing extraordinary

The chart below shows for 2020* – under the assumptions stated – the expected number of deaths per million, per age group, conditioned on age and population size, compared to previous years

50237466157_53f360dc80_c_d.jpg


It’s clear from the graph that expected deaths for full year 2020 – under the stated assumptions – will be well in “normal” range, nothing remarkable, nothing extraordinary, no cause for panic, disaster and doom & gloom
 
Saturday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 15, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 572 (5,783) 442* 31 *according to SVT.se Sweden doesn’t register until Monday.
Denmark: 107 (621) 134 0 According to TV2.dk
Finland: 60 (333) 11 0
Norway: 48 (261*) 40 2 *four deaths keep appearing and disappearing. Now they are back again.
Iceland: 29 (10) 12 1
Iceland has 121 active cases, Faroe Islands 147, New Zealand 69.
The Faroe Islands have 700+ in quarantine, no tests awaiting results, no hospitalizations. They seem to be on top of it again.

Sweden Has had only 1 death during the past week but don’t let me interrupt

50236684413_a54ae271aa_c_d.jpg
 
Sweden Has had only 1 death during the past week but don’t let me interrupt


Do you have a link to that data? Or are you just pulling it out of your ...? I have seen the same claim made once before today, but like you, he provided no link to a source.
ETA: Oh, I see it now! The next time you see the words, "This area will be revised," you probably shouldn't consider the numbers presented in that box very reliable!


From another (Swedish) forum: August 12 to 14, 2020:
Sju nya dödsfall inrapporterade
Sju nya dödsfall med bekräftad covid-19 har inrapporterats under det senaste dygnet, enligt Folkhälsomyndighetens senaste uppdatering.
Totalt har 5 783 smittade personer avlidit enligt Folkhälsomyndigheten.
84 294 personer har hittills bekräftats smittade. Det är 442 nya bekräftade fall sedan i går.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, Aug. 14, 2020 - 14:01)
Två nya dödsfall med bekräftad covid-19 har inrapporterats under torsdagen, enligt Folkhälsomyndighetens senaste uppdatering.
Totalt har 5 776 smittade personer avlidit enligt Folkhälsomyndigheten.
83 852 personer har hittills bekräftats smittade. Det är 397 nya bekräftade fall sedan i går.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, Aug. 13, 2020 - 14:04)
Fyra nya dödsfall med bekräftad covid-19 har inrapporterats under onsdagen, enligt Folkhälsomyndighetens senaste uppdatering.
Totalt har 5 774 smittade personer avlidit enligt Folkhälsomyndigheten.
83 455 personer har hittills bekräftats smittade. Det är 329 nya bekräftade fall sedan i går.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, Aug. 12, 2020 - 14:01)


Considering that Sweden still doesn't really do TeTrIs, it is not surprising that it doesn't get any better than this.

Monday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 17, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 573 (5,787) 751* 31 *since Friday according to SVT.se + Fyra nya dödsfall med bekräftad covid-19 har inrapporterats
sedan i fredags.
Denmark: 107 (621) 123 1 According to TV2.dk
Finland: 60 (334) 21 0
Norway: 48 (261*) 30 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 3 1
Iceland has 116 active cases, Faroe Islands 144, New Zealand 78.
The Faroe Islands have 690 in quarantine, no tests awaiting results, 2 hospitalizations. They seem to be on top of it again.
 
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