Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[dann]

Statens Serum Institut: Mink med muteret virus kan ødelægge effekten af vaccine (DR.dk, Oct. 13, 2020)
The State Serum Institute: Mink with mutated virus may destroy the effect of a vaccine

Partier om mutationsbekymring: På tide at forbyde minkavl in Denmark (DR.dk, Oct. 14, 2020)
Parties about mutation worries: About time to ban mink farming in Denmark

Coronavirus has now spread to 80 minkfarms in Jutland, and it transmits both ways, i.e. also mink --> humans. The mink at farms with outbreaks are being killed, which has led to demonstrations:
Demonstrationer på Gjøl over mink-aflivning (TV2. dk, Oct. 14, 2020 - 9:17)
Demonstrations at Gjøl because of the preventative killing of mink

 

[uke2se]

My comment "shame on you Sweden" stands on its own and has no connection to my colleague's comment. Do you believe that Sweden should not be ashamed of its behaviour in "managing" the virus?

Not yet, no. When we're through it, there will be a reckoning. Until then I, along with the rest of the world, concentrate on hunkering down and making the best of the situation. Lots more people will die before this is over and done with. If Australia is managing without heavy loss of life, you should be happy about that and not worry about Sweden.

 

[lionking]

Not yet, no. When we're through it, there will be a reckoning. Until then I, along with the rest of the world, concentrate on hunkering down and making the best of the situation. Lots more people will die before this is over and done with. If Australia is managing without heavy loss of life, you should be happy about that and not worry about Sweden.

Yeah, okay, but I once looked on Sweden with admiration. A beacon of liberal society with much in common with Australia. Not now.

I do not dislike the people of Sweden, just the government and its supporters. I get that you probably don’t care for my opinion. I will just have to live with that, unlike the many in Sweden who have needlessly died.

 

[Samson]

A couple of points about a high infection rate/low death rate policy are firstly younger people can get very ill and secondly that nobody knows the longer term impact of the disease. The whole idea of accepting a higher infection rate in the pursuit of imaginary herd-immunity-without-a-vaccine is disgraceful.

Just wondering and hoping your son is on a complete recovery trajectory Lionking.

 

[lionking]

Just wondering and hoping your son is on a complete recovery trajectory Lionking.

He is well, but he doesn’t know what the future holds. He lives a full and happy life (even in lockdown) but wishes he could have tests which would show any possible longer term effects, which don’t exist.

This is where the “young people will recover and get over it” argument falls completely flat. How does anybody know?

To the OP, any government which accepts and makes policy decisions that result in people getting the virus deserves condemnation.

 

[dann]

Not yet, no. When we're through it, there will be a reckoning. Until then I, along with the rest of the world, concentrate on hunkering down and making the best of the situation. Lots more people will die before this is over and done with. If Australia is managing without heavy loss of life, you should be happy about that and not worry about Sweden.

As I argued in post 2468, Swedes should do a lot more than hunkering down and worrying about themselves only.
Sweden appears to have abandoned the herd-immunity strategy for the most part and about time, but in order to redeem itself somewhat it is high time to stand up against the lies and do so explicitly!

The abandoned Swedish herd-immunity strategy seems to be gaining momentum in the world, as documented by the most recent contra-factual article posted by Tippit and quoted by CC. It is now the more-or-less official strategy of the White House:

Rachel Maddow shares reporting by the Washington Post that a Trump administration official has admitted that the Trump policy for dealing with coronavirus is tantamount to herd immunity, even as experts deride it as "fringe" and "dangerous," and the U.S. appears to be in the grips of a second wave of infections. Aired on 10/13/2020.
Trump Admin Admits Embrace Of Disputed Herd Immunity Strategy: WaPo | Rachel Maddow | MSNBC

Maverick scientists who call for allowing the coronavirus to spread freely at “natural” rates among healthy young people while keeping most aspects of the economy up and running have found an audience inside the White House and at least one state capitol.
The scientists met last week with Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar and Scott Atlas, a neuroradiologist who has emerged as an influential adviser to President Donald Trump on the pandemic.
When asked for comment, HHS referred a reporter to Azar’s subsequent Twitter statement about the meeting: “We heard strong reinforcement of the Trump Administration’s strategy of aggressively protecting the vulnerable while opening schools and the workplace.”
A senior administration official told reporters in a background briefing call Monday that the proposed strategy — which has been denounced by other infectious-disease experts and has been called “fringe” and “dangerous” by National Institutes of Health Director Francis Collins — supports what has been Trump’s policy for months.
Proposal to hasten herd immunity grabs White House attention, appalls top scientists (SeattleTimes, Oct. 13, 2020)

As I have documented, not even Anders Tegnell seems to still believe that it is possible to let the virus spread and at the same time protect the elderly and other vulnerable groups.

That you, uke2se, are in the enviable position where you can be "hunkering down and making the best of the situation," is not at all something that you share "with the rest of the world." Being a Swede enables you to do something about this that the rest of us can't do. Hunkering down won't do it.

ETA: White House embraces a declaration from scientists that opposes lockdowns and relies on ’herd immunity’ (NYT, Oct. 14, 2020)

 

[Clutch Cargo]

Not yet, no. When we're through it, there will be a reckoning. Until then I, along with the rest of the world, concentrate on hunkering down and making the best of the situation. Lots more people will die before this is over and done with. If Australia is managing without heavy loss of life, you should be happy about that and not worry about Sweden.

Yes. Each of us is doing what we see fit. Keeping distance, yes of course. Wearing a mask, if you like. Staying at home with the slightest besvär, yes. I have a friend who’s in a hospice. He is dying from cancer. When the virus got going the hospice closed to visitors and I haven’t seen him since then. A couple of days ago he rang to say that visitors are now allowed back. I haven’t decided if I want to do it or not. The point is that we are all doing something even without new laws. The funny thing is that when I recently travelled through Denmark on my way to Germany there were no rules. In fact, Denmark had obligatory platsbiljetter on the trains and so you were forced to sit next to and facing strangers! It may still be that way, I don’t know, but now Denmark has some new and tougher rules yet despite that the situation in Denmark is no better and no worse than in Sweden.

 

[lionking]

Yes. Each of us is doing what we see fit. Keeping distance, yes of course. Wearing a mask, if you like. Staying at home with the slightest besvär, yes. I have a friend who’s in a hospice. He is dying from cancer. When the virus got going the hospice closed to visitors and I haven’t seen him since then. A couple of days ago he rang to say that visitors are now allowed back. I haven’t decided if I want to do it or not. The point is that we are all doing something even without new laws. The funny thing is that when I recently travelled through Denmark on my way to Germany there were no rules. In fact, Denmark had obligatory platsbiljetter on the trains and so you were forced to sit next to and facing strangers! It may still be that way, I don’t know, but now Denmark has some new and tougher rules yet despite that the situation in Denmark is no better and no worse than in Sweden.

Well good for you. Enjoy the ever increasing infections and deaths in your country and just pretend there are no alternatives. Whatever you do, don’t look towards Japan and South Korea. What do those countries know?

 

[dann]

Well good for you. Enjoy the ever increasing infections and deaths in your country and just pretend there are no alternatives. Whatever you do, don’t look towards Japan and South Korea. What do those countries know?

He is lying again, of course. The new restrictions in Denmark have brought down the number of new infections again, but very slowly. In Sweden, the number is still rising, and the death toll is bound to follow.
Denmark's number of new deaths has been higher than Sweden's as a result of the weeks when the number of new cases was allowed to rise beyond Sweden's. The death toll in Finland and Norway still isn't anywhere near Sweden's, but they need to take precautions to prevent getting there..

I don't know how much the White House embracing the herd-immunity strategy will change things over there. Several states have been going for herd immunity for months already. It doesn't appear to be the year for herd humanity.

 

[dann]

Sweden's betrayal of the elderly in the pandemic

These are the outright lies:

"Sweden’s health care system was never overwhelmed, even at the height of the pandemic, and the country is now in a better position than any other country on the continent, virtually all of which continue to follow disastrous lockdown policies."


And this is reality:

Strategin att ”skydda de äldre” från coronaviruset fallerade både praktiskt och moraliskt. Det är inte en slump, men väl en skandal. Så var är ramaskriet?
Sverige skulle skydda de äldre – men lämnade dem utan läkarvård (Editorial in DagensNyheter.se, Oct 14/15, 2020)

The strategy to ”protect the elderly” from the coronavirus failed both in actual fact and ethically. It is not a question of bad luck, but it is a disgrace. So where is the outcry?
Sweden was supposed to protect the elderly – but left them without medical treatment

Varför har så många äldre stockholmare tillåtits dö utan läkarvård under coronapandemin? Hur kunde en ljusskygg order från regionen räcka för att sopa undan både yrkesetiken och lagen? Maciej Zaremba hittar svaren i ett sekretessmarkerat dokument – och i ett system där de som bestämmer inte vet vad de gör.
Varför fick de äldre dö utan läkarvård? (DagensNyheter.se, Oct 14/15, 2020)

Why were so many old people in Stockholm left to die in the pandemic without medical treatment? How could a shady order from the region be enough to sweep both professional ethics and the law under the rug? Maciej Zaremba finds the answer in a classified document – and in a system where the people in charge don’t know what they are doing.
Why were the elderly left to die without medical treatment?

 

[dann]

Sweden's rising number of coronavirus cases

This is the outright lie:

Sweden (as expected) has maintained its “eliminated” status (bravo Sweden!).

And this is reality:

Smittan ökar i 17 av 21 län (SVT.se, Oct. 14, 2020)
The contagion is increasing in 17 out of 21 regions
Så här ser covid-läget ut i Stockholms län (SVT.se, Oct. 14, 2020)
This is what the Covid-19 situation looks like in the Stockholm region Graph with the number of new cases weekly, from early July till now. Also the numbers per day from June 25 till now, and hospitalizations, patients in ICUs and deaths.


YouTube bans misleading Covid-19 vaccine videos (BBC, Oct. 14, 2020)
Facebook Removes Trump’s Post About Covid-19, Citing Misinformation Rules (WSJ, Oct. 6, 2020)
I don't know why barefaced lies about the pandemic are allowed in the International Skeptics Forum.

 

[jimbob]

Meanwhile this is the infection map for most of Europe for wks 39-40



Doesn't really look like it's eliminated in Sweden compared to Norway or Finland, say

 

[Clutch Cargo]

LATEST UPDATE. according to WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19),

Data last updated:2020/10/14, 4:14pm CEST

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 46,308
Australia 31
Sweden 0
Denmark 290
New Zealand 2

The U.S. Australia, and New Zealand fluctuating up and down but not in any great numbers and although the U.S. has increased by a thousand it isn’t really that astonishing considering its population. Denmark is the biggest loser again, but I don’t understand why it should be that way, what with their hard restrictions. And then there is Sweden that seems to be holding an “elimination” status. It’s been said that Sweden doesn’t report its new cases as often as other countries but even when it shows a departure from having “eliminated” the virus those numbers reported are less per capita than Denmark. It really is a fascinating example that supports Sweden’s lack of restrictions. I mean, if you look at both countries, neighbours bordering one another, with such opposing methods of enduring the Corona virus but turning in similar per capita numbers of newly infected. Even an idiot can see that "something is rotten in Denmark".

 

[Clutch Cargo]

Meanwhile this is the infection map for most of Europe for wks 39-40

View attachment 43273

Doesn't really look like it's eliminated in Sweden compared to Norway or Finland, say

Yet enormously better off than Denmark despite its hard restrictions.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Because the costs of imprisoning yourself, and embracing all manner of draconian measures for this disease far outweigh the benefits.

My home is my castle, and defending it against the zombie hordes is not imprisonment. I enjoyed being locked down, free to do what I wanted in my 'castle' rather than being forced to mingle with the infected outside. I wasn't stopped from venturing out for supplies when I needed them. Empty streets and people courteously keeping their distance made me feel freer than usual. Knowing that everyone else was doing the same was also reassuring, as I knew my neighbors were safe and we would beat the virus in good time.

You know what have would been imprisonment? Being a slave to the economy and having to risk sickness or death for it. Imagine being forced to work to avoid losing your job, then losing it anyway because the virus made business impossible. Imagine becoming destitute and not having the freedom to do what you want because you can't afford it. I've been on the edge of that and it's frightening - the real imprisonment of being poor.

The 'draconian' measures you speak of were definitely worth it for me - for my health, for peace of mind, for financial freedom, for the fact that my state has one of the lowest rates of infection in the country, and for the promise of a better future. I would take a few weeks holiday at home for that any time.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

LATEST UPDATE. according to WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19),

Data last updated:2020/10/14, 4:14pm CEST

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 46,308
Australia 31
Sweden 0
Denmark 290
New Zealand 2

...It’s been said that Sweden doesn’t report its new cases as often as other countries

613 cases on Oct 13 according to Worldometer. Your '0' is a misrepresentation.

The U.S. Australia, and New Zealand fluctuating up and down... then there is Sweden that seems to be holding an “elimination” status.

Actually New Zealand has been 0 for the last 13 days (the figure you quoted is travelers from overseas who are in managed isolation). That's real elimination.

Some day (hopefully) Sweden will eliminate the virus. Then we can look at the final figures and see how you did. But just looking at one day where no numbers were reported in Sweden and then asserting that "something is rotten in Denmark" is simply dishonest.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

Actually New Zealand has been 0 for the last 13 days (the figure you quoted is travelers from overseas who are in managed isolation). That's*real*elimination.

You see the figures I quoted. This last one shows a report of 2 new cases in New Zealand in the last 24 hours. That is not an "elimination". I check the tally when I get up in the morning, not periodically during the day so one can only guess if the “in the last 24 hours” reflects a steady “hourly” increase. I’m not in the business of guessing. If you disagree with that then you ought to take it up with WHO.

Some day (hopefully) Sweden*will*eliminate the virus. Then we can look at the final figures and see how you did.

I didn’t introduce the term “eliminate” in this context. In fact I am against it, but there are those who insist that twisting, spinning and manipulating the term is fair and permissible. Let us say that they have won me over. In any case, when using the term myself, I am simply honouring my antagonists convictions.

But just looking at one day where no numbers were reported in Sweden and then asserting that "something is rotten in*Denmark" is simply dishonest.

Yes, I agree with you but that isn’t what I have done at all. Something is rotten in Denmark and this is obvious when looking at both the days (that I have faithfully and accurately quoted on a daily basis) when Sweden has logged in a “+” tally. On those days Denmark displays a greater per capita figure than Sweden anyway. And then there is map you’ve attached. Is this not clear? And all of this, despite Denmark’s tough restrictions as oppose to Sweden’s lack of/lazed restrictions.

 

[dann]

613 cases on Oct 13 according to Worldometer. Your '0' is a misrepresentation.

Recently, the number of new cases in Sweden is always late. On SVT.se the number from the previous day appears every day at 2 p.m/14:00 CEST time. (Oct. 25, we switch back to CET).

Wednesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 14, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 584 (5,907) 678* 28 * according to SVT.se,
Denmark: 116 (675) 492 17
Finland: 63 (350) 204 8
Norway: 51 (277) 162 3
Iceland: 29 (10) 89 3
Iceland has 1,132 active cases, Faroe Islands 11, New Zealand 40.
The Faroe Islands have 69 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
First Covid case in almost a week (KVF.fo, Oct. 14, 2020) [/quote]
In case anybody is interested in learning to speak Faroese: New Faroese-language syllabus launched (KVF.fo, Oct. 14, 2020)

 

[banquetbear]

That is not an "elimination".

...it is by the definitions posted earlier in this thread, and by the definitions universally accepted by almost every epidemiologist in the world.

I didn’t introduce the term “eliminate” in this context.

Except that you did. Everybody except for you understands the context in which elimination is being used: which is that there is no community transmission. You are using eliminate in an entirely different context to not only everybody else in this thread, but practically everybody else in the world. You are entitled to do that. But the very least you could do would be to admit that this is what you are doing.

 

[dann]

Lessons from New Zealand's COVID-19 outbreak response (TheLancet, Oct. 13, 2020)
COVID-19 in New Zealand and the impact of the national response: a descriptive epidemiological study (TheLancet, Oct. 13, 2020)