Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[dann]

Because Karl Marx is ultimately responsible for China, the only place (that I'm aware of) that has resorted to physically imprisoning people in their own homes.

No, he's not. He's dead. And if only Iceland had incarcerated the two French ********, they wouldn't now be dealing with the second wave, so I wish they had.
I hope that the Faroese learned from their experience with the Russian trawler and don't repeat the mistake they made the last time.

Because the costs of imprisoning yourself, and embracing all manner of draconian measures for this disease far outweigh the benefits.

As always, your "draconian measures" are imaginary, but it sounds so good, doesn't it?!

 

[Tippit]

The demographic, geographic, and political factors really don't enter into it. In the middle ages you might have had a point, but New Zealand isn't very difficult to go to even if you live on the other side of the Earht, which I do, more or less. By the way, we have already established that Sweden's population isn't very massive, pop. density 25, and I doubt that Swedes are more mobile than Kiwis is. Very few Swedes make a living

The idea that geographic isolation, tiny population, and national quarantine aren't the overriding factors in NZ's success, and could be easily replicated everywhere else, is too ridiculous to respond to.

I have not only Karl Marx but also Bertolt Brecht, another commie, in my signature.
I was never a fan of Chinese 'communism', but I have noticed something that you probably haven't: At the very early stage of the pandemic, the media were full of news reports from China with terrifying descriptions of the inhumane way they treated Chinese citizens. You know, "sealing people in their homes."
In my country, this horror stories about China's inhumane pandemic response more or less vanished after a Danish TV team followed a Dane traveling to China where he experienced what it was like to live through the Chinese quarantine: It was a bit boring, but apart from that, it didn't seem so bad and it was obviously very effective.

So, you're a communist. Noted. And you believe that because some Danish journalists traveled to China and managed to not get sealed into their residences is somehow relevant, or a justification.

So you are almost right when you say that I "wouldn't mind sealing people in their homes a la the Chinese in Wuhan." I was quite content not to have been sealed in my home in March and April during the Danish lockdown, but I also think that it would have helped save hundreds of lives if we had been, which would have been worth the inconvenience and would have ended the outbreak much sooner, which would have made a 'house arrest' tolerable. Denmark: 665 deaths (115 per million).

Of course I'm right. And you're a tyrant.

Unlike China, the only country in the world that was 100% unprepared for SARS-CoV-2, it was also easier for the Scandinavian countries to avoid "sealing people in their homes": A couple of months into the pandemic, it was already beginning to be clear how the virus spreads and how it doesn't.
China didn't know anything when the whole thing started, but we knew much more a few months later thanks to China and South Korea and were therefore never sealed in our homes.

Of course China didn't know anything. Why would the country of origin who released the virus from the Wuhan Institute of Virology as a bioweapon know anything?

ETA: When you call the pandemic response of countries like Australia and New Zealand tyrannical, it really spoils your credibility when you criticize China's handling of the pandemic!

What's really incredible, is quoting any of the Chinese Communist Parties statistics on Covid as if they're credible.

 

[dann]

Thursday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 8, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 582 (5,892) 855* 25** *according to SVT.se, ** according to SVT.se
Denmark: 115 (665) 446 17
Finland: 62 (346) 296 5
Norway: 51 (275) +85* 4 *+ because Norway’s numbers are reported to Worldometers more than once a day.
Iceland: 29 (10) 95 4
Iceland has 846 active cases, Faroe Islands 21, New Zealand 37.
The Faroe Islands have 101 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.

The Faroe Islands seem to be on top of it again, but just to make sure that they don’t get too cocky: A harsh reality check (KVF.fo, Oct. 8, 2020)
(But the ”lesson in humility” has nothing to do with the pandemic. Denmark doesn’t get anywhere near what the Faroe Islands have achieved in that field. And it is not hard to figure out that Andorra may have been particularly disadvantaged this year!)


Denmark/Sweden:
Smittetallet i Sverige er steget til 32,4 smittede per 100.000, og det medfører, at Sverige er kommet med på listen over lande, som Udenrigsministeriet fraråder alle ikke-nødvendige rejser til. (DR.dk, Oct. 8, 2020 – 16:10)
The number of new cases in Sweden has risen to 32,4 per 100,000, which means that Sweden is now on the list of countries that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs advises against going to unless unnecessary.

Norway/Sweden:
Norge rödlistar hela Sverige – utom Kalmar (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 8, 2020)
Norway ’red lists’ all of Sweden – with the exception of Kalmar

 

[dann]

The idea that geographic isolation, tiny population, and national quarantine aren't the overriding factors in NZ's success, and could be easily replicated everywhere else, is too ridiculous to respond to.

Yes, I knew you would evade this one.

So, you're a communist. Noted.

Damn! All this time I've been hiding behind my communist sig line, hoping to get away with it without anybody noticing. I guess you were just too clever for me.

And you believe that because some Danish journalists traveled to China and managed to not get sealed into their residences is somehow relevant, or a justification.

I never claimed he wasn't quarantined. He was!

Of course I'm right. And you're a tyrant.

Yes, I seal people in their homes, force them to work without PPE and wear face masks on public transport. Riiiiiight!

Of course China didn't know anything. Why would the country of origin who released the virus from the Wuhan Institute of Virology as a bioweapon know anything?

What's really incredible, is quoting any of the Chinese Communist Parties statistics on Covid as if they're credible.

I didn't know that the CCP had taken over Worldometers. Wikipedia tells me that "The website was founded by Andrey Alimetov, a Russian immigrant to the United States, in 2004."

 

[banquetbear]

Oh, the magical NZ. I think too many of you think you are really in Middle Earth, where different rules prevail.

...I'm not sure what inspired this post. I don't think different rule prevail. All I stated was I'm not wedded to elimination as the only solution outside of New Zealand. But inside of New Zealand? Of course. I've got a stake in the game here. The elimination strategy has worked here. I don't want Plan B. Why would I? What material benefit would we get from switching from our present strategy to the one that you think is "more practical?"

As I pointed out earlier, NSW had no community transmissions. Until they did.

NSW doesn't have an elimination strategy. But they do have a strategy of requiring 28 days of no mystery cases of community transmission before reopening the borders. So again I'm not sure what your point is here.

In my view complete elimination of this virus without a vaccine is magical thinking.

Except we've done it twice. It isn't magical thinking. Its a valid strategy to peruse in the midst of a global pandemic that is killing thousands per day and having major economic impacts.

But carry on.

Thanks for your blessing. I certainly will.

 

[banquetbear]

The idea that geographic isolation, tiny population, and national quarantine aren't the overriding factors in NZ's success, and could be easily replicated everywhere else, is too ridiculous to respond to.

...our geographic isolation, tiny population and national quarantine meant absolutely nothing when Covid-19 was spreading through the community in multiple outbreaks throughout the country. New Zealand has the same surface area of Colorado, about the same state population of Louisiana, its biggest city has a population density of 1210 people per square kilometer (compared to Louisiana with 104.9 people per square mile.

When Covid hit New Zealand at the start of the year we were not prepared for it. Not enough ICU beds, not enough PPE, only enough materials to provide tests for a week, not enough ventilators, no real contact tracing regime in place. If we did nothing it would have ripped through the country killing thousands.

New Zealand adopted very simple protocols that essentially starved Covid of hosts throughout several incubation periods of the virus. That gave us the ability to reopen the local economy, ramp up testing protocols and build a contact tracing regime and when we got hit by the second outbreak it allowed us to localise the response without having to lockdown as hard as we needed to the first time. There is nothing stopping you from doing exactly the same thing where you live.

 

[jimbob]

...our geographic isolation, tiny population and national quarantine meant absolutely nothing when Covid-19 was spreading through the community in multiple outbreaks throughout the country. New Zealand has the same surface area of Colorado, about the same state population of Louisiana, its biggest city has a population density of 1210 people per square kilometer (compared to Louisiana with 104.9 people per square mile.

When Covid hit New Zealand at the start of the year we were not prepared for it. Not enough ICU beds, not enough PPE, only enough materials to provide tests for a week, not enough ventilators, no real contact tracing regime in place. If we did nothing it would have ripped through the country killing thousands.

New Zealand adopted very simple protocols that essentially starved Covid of hosts throughout several incubation periods of the virus. That gave us the ability to reopen the local economy, ramp up testing protocols and build a contact tracing regime and when we got hit by the second outbreak it allowed us to localise the response without having to lockdown as hard as we needed to the first time. There is nothing stopping you from doing exactly the same thing where you live.

Indeed and it really doesn't explain Sweden's performance compared to its Scandinavian peers:

Nor how Israel managed to get the outbreak down to about 10 cases a day, before relaxing and then letting it run away.

Notice also South Korea along the bottom of this chart.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

LATEST UPDATE. according to WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19),
Data last updated: 2020/10/8, 3:24pm CEST

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 38,904
Australia 8
Sweden 0
Denmark 331
New Zealand 3

Denmark is the biggest loser again but New Zealand has decided to follow Sweden’s example and dismiss the rule on wearing face masks. Interesting, though, that new cases of the virus in New Zealand continue on a daily basis.

According to the official WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) statistics one can only assume that there are no new cases in Sweden. But the statistics are being fiddled with across the board so you never really know for sure. We can be sure that the virus has not been “eliminated” anywhere and claims to the contrary are pure BS. Believing the virus has been “eliminated” is a wonderful thing for morale. No one really wants a panic to break out and believing in “elimination”, Father Christmas, and the coming of a Messiah all serve their purpose.

Congratulations to New Zealand for following Sweden’s example. Let us hope that neither country regrets the decision and that maybe (just maybe) those responsible in both countries will be nominated the Nobel Prize.

 

[banquetbear]

Denmark is the biggest loser again but New Zealand has decided to follow Sweden’s example and dismiss the rule on wearing face masks. Interesting, though, that new cases of the virus in New Zealand continue on a daily basis.

...LATEST UPDATE: New Zealand Covid-19 response was the best in the world according to global business leaders in the latest Bloomberg Market Crisis Management Index. New Zealand scored first at 238, followed by Japan and Taiwan. Factors include social resilience, coronavirus control, economic recovery and political stability.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/mone...arket-crisis-management-bloomberg-survey.html

In New Zealand while there is no more mandatory mask mandate in the community, at the borders the standard of required PPE remains high. Despite propaganda that says otherwise, masks are a very important tool used in the fight against Covid-19 and if there is community spread, then masks should be worn to not only protect the wearer but the people they are interacting with.

Congratulations to New Zealand for following Sweden’s example. Let us hope that neither country regrets the decision and that maybe (just maybe) those responsible in both countries will be nominated the Nobel Prize.

Congratulations to New Zealand for keeping it citizens safe, lets hope that countries like Sweden will learn to follow its example.

 

[dann]

The Death of the Swedish Strategy

Congratulations to New Zealand for following Sweden’s example. Let us hope that neither country regrets the decision and that maybe (just maybe) those responsible in both countries will be nominated the Nobel Prize.

Congratulations to New Zealand for keeping it citizens safe, lets hope that countries like Sweden will learn to follow its example.

It is not difficult to figure out why CC and "those responsible" for the Swedish pandemic response prefer to be in denial of reality.

This summer, whenever other countries reopened after lockdown Tegnell, Giesecke and their followers claimed that loosening restrictions meant that those countries had now adopted the Swedish strategy in spite of the obvious fact that the strategy of reopening gradually after having hammered down the spread of the virus was either the Hammer & the Dance or, in the case of countries like New Zealand, Iceland or the Faroe Islands, which Tegnell preferred to remain in denial about, the Elimination strategy.

After having enjoyed a summer of jubilation where Sweden's virus deniers celebrated the success of the herd immunity, which they were now convinced was the cause of their relatively (compared to March-June) low numbers of new cases, hospitalizations and deaths, the irony is that the rising number of cases (hospitalizations and deaths always take a week or two more) means that Sweden has now given up on reopening further and is instead implementing still more restrictions.

The organizers of public sport events, concerts and theatrical performances had expected the restrictions of crowd sizes to disappear (it had more or less been promised to them), but it won't happen:
Regeringen: Publikgränsen kvar på 50 personer (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 8, 2020)
Government: The limit on audience size remains at 50 persons

Organizers as well as performers are obviously disappointed:
”Vissa band klarar inte året ut” (SVT.se, Oct. 8, 2020)
Some (dance) bands won't survive till the end of this year
so the authorities have now returned to blaming people for not obeying the rules and regulations:
Folkhälsomyndigheten: Idrotten har inte tagit smittrisken på tillräckligt allvar (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 8, 2020)
The Public Health Agency: the world of sports did not take the risk of transmission of the virus sufficiently seriously

And why would they take it seriously? Tegnell had convinced them that Sweden had achieved a considerable level of 'herd immunity'. And not just professional athletes and performers are disappointed. Ordinary Swedes also find it difficult to understand what is going on: What happened to the herd immunity that they had been promised?
Varför avråder Danmark och Norge om resor till Sverige när Tegnell, och Olsen hävdar att här blir det ingen andra våg ??? (SVT.se, Oct. 8, 19:35)
Why do Denmark and Sweden warn against traveling to Sweden when Tegnell and Olse claim that there will be no second wave ????
(Yes, even Björn Olsen bought into that idea, but he was never as adamant about it as Tegnell and Giesecke.)

And Sweden is now (re)introducing restrictions:

Folkhälsomyndigheten vill begränsa antalet personer i köpcentrum (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 8, 2020)
The Public Health Agency wants to restrict the number of people in shopping malls

So the irony is that while Tegnell and Giesecke have been busy trying to spread the herd-immunity ideology to the rest of the world, Sweden now seems to have given up on the idea that any real level of herd immunity has been achieved, and this time, at the beginning of the second wave that they had convinced themselves was never going to happen, they don't seem to want to go along with the Swedish strategy again.
The Swedish strategy seems to have died for now, at least in Sweden. Sweden is following the example of (most of) the rest of the world.

This is no time to gloat, of course. Sweden seemed to be incapable of learning, but they are now showing that they can learn and have learned. And I expect that this winter will be a much better experience for the old and the vulnerable than it would have been if Sweden had let the virus rip a second time. And people in Sweden really need the reassurance now:
Studier visar: Psykisk ohälsa ökar under pandemin (SVT.se, Oct. 9, 2020 - 6:34)
Studies show: Mental illness increases during the pandemic

After Tegnell himself was telling people that they shouldn't even expect to be be able to celebrate Christmas with their families this year, it seems like the final humiliation that his boss told people last night that he will not allow Tegnell to be the Grinch who stole Christmas:
Johan Carlson: Hoppet om en jul tillsammans är inte ute (SVT.se, Oct. 8, 2020 - 21:23)
Johan Carlson: Hope for a Christmas together is not gone


As for the Nobel Prize for Tegnell, I don't really see it coming. He would stand a much better chance of getting it for his contributions to fiction than for his contribution to medicine ...

 

[dann]

Thursday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 8, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Norway: 51 (275) +85* 4 *+ because Norway’s numbers are reported to Worldometers more than once a day.

Yesterday's number of new cases in Norway rose to 209.

 

[dann]

Mest markant har faldet været i København og Frederiksberg Kommune. Her toppede man 25. september. I København har der været et fald fra 127 til 63 nye smittede ud af 100.000 indbyggere på en uge. På Frederiksberg er faldet fra 144 til 36 nye smittede per 100.000 indbyggere.
Smitten er faldet markant i hovedstaden: 'Det er rigtig flot'
(DR.dk, Oct. 7, 2020)

Most signifacant is the decrease (of new cases) in the municipalities Copenhagen and Frederiskberg. They peaked Sep. 25. In Copenhagen, the number of new cases dropped from 127 to 63 per 100,000 in one week. In Frederiksberg, the number dropped from 144 to 36 per 100,000.
The spread has dropped significantly in the capital: ’That is really good’

Since the new restrictions started one week earlier in the Copenhagen area than in the rest of the country, it is no coincidence that this is where number began to drop. I live in Frederiksberg, so I'm quite content with the way things are going now, but I would still prefer to see the virus eliminated rather than just hammered down.
It's the kind of 'dance' I could do without.

 

[PhantomWolf]

And a population of less than 5m, and all isolated on a relatively small island nation, and with a full travel ban initiated only a few days after Trump's China travel ban, which was relentlessly mocked, but for all the wrong (and hypocritical) reasons.

I thought I'd highlight all the things you managed to get wrong in your post.

We shall see if you can hold out with the travel bans until a vaccine arrives.

We're doing pretty well well thank you.

And you know what? Had the US implemented the same steps we did instead of doing a half-pi China Travel ban while the virus was coming in from Europe, they wouldn't be in the situation that they are now. They'd be in a batter position than we are, especially considering that with the industry and population that the US has, it can happily economically survive in a situation where it's borders are closed down. The US doesn't rely on external tourism and production to the likes that we do. This virus could have been eliminated in the US within weeks, instead of still being a major threat nine months later!

The difference between us is not in size or isolation. It is in having leadership who was willing to make the hard calls to save lives instead of the stockmarket, who were willing to put the country's full resources behind eliminating the virus, and who were able to unite the country, both those on the left and the right, into a single team who would act together for the common good, rather than building on and increasing the divisions in the country, all while cheerleading an entire sector of that community to fight against the measures that were being put into place to combat the disease,
denying the basic science that would help to slow the spread of the disease, and promoting harmful and ignorant pseudoscience that endangered people's health.

That's the difference.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Denmark is the biggest loser again but New Zealand has decided to follow Sweden’s example and dismiss the rule on wearing face masks.

No, we're not following Sweden's example at all. We don't have to wear masks because the virus has been eliminated from the community and we have returned to Level 1, making masks kind of pointless. I'd note that on Monday I was wearing a mask at work all day because I picked up a non-Covid cold and have had a cough all week. I have been off work with it since Tuesday.

Interesting, though, that new cases of the virus in New Zealand continue on a daily basis.

You clearly didn't bother to read my previous post on this. The cases being reported in New Zealand currently are from Managed Isolation where New Zealanders returning to the country and infected elsewhere are being picked up. We have an average of about 2,800 people returning to NZ every week, many from the UK, US, and India. They have to spend 2 weeks in Managed Isolation on returning, so yes, we are picking up cases of people being infected in those other countries before they returned here. They aren't in the community and are not a threat to those in the community (well except for the idiots that keep escaping Isolation to go wandering about the city even after being told not to do so.)

Congratulations to New Zealand for following Sweden’s example. Let us hope that neither country regrets the decision and that maybe (just maybe) those responsible in both countries will be nominated the Nobel Prize.

Again, we aren't following Sweden's example, we are following our own path, which is to Isolate, Test, Contact Trace, and Eliminate. This is nothing like Sweden.

ETA: I'd also note that it seems that Sweden has been reporting their figures late, and that since they have now reported having new 569 cases two days ago, it is highly unlikely that they really had zero yesterday.

 

[Rolfe]

Clutch Cargo has his tongue firmly in his cheek, right?

 

[lionking]

Clutch Cargo has his tongue firmly in his cheek, right?

Sadly, he’s serious.

 

[Rolfe]

Nobody could actually believe that. His posts have all the hallmarks of deliberate distorsions presented for amusing effect.

 

[PhantomWolf]

ETA: I'd also note that it seems that Sweden has been reporting their figures late, and that since they have now reported having new 569 cases two days ago, it is highly unlikely that they really had zero yesterday.

Sweden's numbers for yesterday have finally come through with 657 new cases, so yeah, it wasn't zero as a certain poster claimed.

 

[dann]

Where do you see that?
The number of new cases since yesterday is

98 451 personer har bekräftats smittade av covid-19. Det är en ökning med 919 personer sedan igår. (SVT.se, Oct. 9, 2020)

And yesterday it was:

Thursday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 8, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 582 (5,892) 855* 25** *according to SVT.se, ** according to SVT.se

 

[dann]

Sweden:
Ministern till studenterna: Skärp er! (Aftonbladet.se, Oct. 9, 2020)
The minister to the students: Get a grip of yourselves!
Danish politicians said something similar a few weeks ago. Many new clusters due to university and college students partying

And Anders Tegnell has pissed off the Italian ambassador to Sweden - again. He just can't help himself. Sweden has just got to be superior to those primitive Mediterraneans:
Italiensambassadör slår tilbaka mot Tegnell (Espressen.se, Oct. 8, 2020)

In an interview with Dagens Nyheter, Tegnell said that Sweden unlike "Italy and Spain" was not experiencing a "second wave" of the coronavirus, a claim which the ambassador said "risked giving readers a false picture of the situation in Italy".
"To call it a second wave is going much too far. But it is a sign of what we have seen for some weeks now, that it is increasing. A second wave implies something bigger, that it covers the whole country, like in Italy and Spain. We have an increase in Stockholm which we should absolutely keep an eye on and take seriously. But it isn't extremely fast and hasn't affected the healthcare sector at all," Tegnell told the Swedish newspaper.
(…)
In the statement, ambassador Marco Cospito cited the European Centre for Disease Control's reports, which show that over the most recent two weeks, cases per 100,000 inhabitants have reached 45 in Italy, compared to 57.6 in Sweden, 319.3 in Spain and 246 in France.
Italian ambassador criticises Tegnell over 'second wave' comments (TheLocal.se, Oct. 7, 2020)