Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Tippit said:
https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/04/04/canadian-man-guilty-of-misgendering-fined-55k-coming-to-america/

That’s all I can find. I’ve watched a lot of Jordan Peterson because I admire his ability to articulate an argument, but I confess that I cant remember whether the legislation is proposed, pending, or passed. Obviously if the story linked above is true...


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Thanks! It's an interesting case:
https://twitter.com/VancouverSun/status/1111075836982190081
 
Tippit said:
https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/04/04/canadian-man-guilty-of-misgendering-fined-55k-coming-to-america/

That’s all I can find. I’ve watched a lot of Jordan Peterson because I admire his ability to articulate an argument, but I confess that I cant remember whether the legislation is proposed, pending, or passed. Obviously if the story linked above is true...


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Peterson is a crank that put himself into a coma and likely gave himself brain damage because he sought out a quack doctor in Russia to cure his benzo addiction.

Perhaps you should reevaluate your opinion of this man.
 
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dudalb said:
And this is why my yourthful flirtation with Libertarianism did not last very long. Reality set in.
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Yeah, you can only have it explained why the civils right act violates the NAP and that segregation is totally fine so many times before you sour on the idea.

It is no surprise that so many "libertarians" of the early 2000's have become open fascists today.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Peterson is a crank that put himself into a coma and likely gave himself brain damage because he sought out a quack doctor in Russia to cure his benzo addiction.

Perhaps you should reevaluate your opinion of this man.
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Reevaluated him. Nope, he still seems like a highly intelligent, and nice guy.

Apparently he and his family suffered from (intentional?) food poisoning, which lead to a whole host of terrible health problems that lead him to try and take extreme measures that didn't exactly work out so well.
 
Tippit said:
Reevaluated him. Nope, he still seems like a highly intelligent, and nice guy.

Apparently he and his family suffered from (intentional?) food poisoning, which lead to a whole host of terrible health problems that lead him to try and take extreme measures that didn't exactly work out so well.
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I think his story is that they have a history of autoimmune issues that are aggravated by diet. His daughter certainly seemed to have been very ill with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. That then led into the whole diet thing.
 
LondonJohn said:
Well firstly, it would be effectively impossible to show that transgender identity (stemming from gender dysphoria) is real by citing experiences among other animals - because the condition does not manifest itself in specific observed behaviours in the way that homosexuality might (although, incidentally, it's really not scientifically valid to point to (say) male lions having sexual activity with other male lions as evidence of homosexuality per se as we would define it for humans...).
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Of course. My point was that, instead of getting things heated and insulting people, one way to respond is to merely bring up facts. What is a relevant fact for homosexuality may or may not be a relevant fact for transgender identity.
LondonJohn said:
Rather, a fairly handy way of demonstrating that gender dysphoria is real and valid is simply to point to the fact that the world's mainstream expert community - people whose job it is to work this sort of stuff out, using their combined expertise and experience (expertise and experience which far, far outweighs that of, say, anyone within this thread) - now consider it to be real and valid. I don't see that as an appeal to authority at all*
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Yes.
LondonJohn said:
I'm not sure what your definition of "insulting someone" is, within the context of this thread? Again, I have no problem with a robust attack on an argument (just as there have, er, been many such attacks on my arguments within this very thread...). And in this specific case, there's only so many times one can ask someone here quite how, why, and on what basis of expertise/experience they are contradicting or otherwise manipulating the views of the world's experts.
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I think "insult" has a pretty fuzzy definition, there will be a lot of grey areas and disagreements (especially considering on which side of the purported insult one resides).
 
cullennz said:
Do you mind linking to these studies.
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Not at all.

A study of workplace challenges for transgender individuals in the Netherlands and Flanders: PDF (In Dutch)
A factsheet with data from a follow up study: PDF (In Dutch)

The Netherlands is one of the more accepting societies when it comes to gender issues (and one I am most familiar with, which is why I included these studies) and it still has very high levels of unemployment and workplace discrimination for transgender individuals.
For a translation, I recommend DeepL which is a deep learning based translation app that seems to be better trained on formal documents than something like Google Translate. Full disclosure: I am not affiliated with them.

A pretty big study on the challenges and discrimination transgender individuals face in the EU: PDF

Workplace challenges for transgenders in the UK: Link

Housing and employment discrimination faced by transgenders compared to LGB individuals in the US: Link
 
xjx388 said:
So a person who's objective reality reflects that they are completely biologically male but has a subjective experience that they are actually supposed to have been born in a female body . . . how is that not a delusion?
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It comes down to the whole distinction between "is" and "ought". A delusion is an idea that is false, when for example someone thinks they are something they are not. It is not a delusion for someone to think they ought to be something they are not. Transgender individuals tend to be fully aware they are not the sex they identify as, even if they use wording in which they claim it as their identity.
 
I'm now in Volume 2... and this did make me laugh, albeit a bit sadly.

theprestige said:
If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that the best women are men. Transwomen are ******* feminism right in the ass, and the primary beneficiaries are men.
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Earthborn said:
It comes down to the whole distinction between "is" and "ought". A delusion is an idea that is false, when for example someone thinks they are something they are not. It is not a delusion for someone to think they ought to be something they are not. Transgender individuals tend to be fully aware they are not the sex they identify as, even if they use wording in which they claim it as their identity.
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Sorry, but I'm not really catching a meaningful distinction here. I firmly believe that I ought to be 4 inches taller, and I ought to be wealthier, and I ought to be a fair bit thinner... and I require everyone else to treat me as if I were actually 4 inches taller, wealthier, and thinner than I actually am in order to affirm my belief about what I ought to be.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'll mouth the words "transwomen are women". It's a meaningless propagandistic slogan,
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Of course it is a propagandistic slogan. It is a political statement, not a statement of biological fact. It is not meaningless though. The people who say it mean they accept transwomen in their adopted gender role, that transwomen have a right to refer to themselves as women and should be treated as women as much as practicable.
 
Earthborn said:
Of course it is a propagandistic slogan. It is a political statement, not a statement of biological fact. It is not meaningless though. The people who say it mean they accept transwomen in their adopted gender role, that transwomen have a right to refer to themselves as women and should be treated as women as much as practicable.
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Perhaps that's similar to "defund the police" which was broad enough to encompass not only taking some $$ and duties away from the police and giving it to social workers, psychologists, and the like, but eliminating police departments? Saying transwomen are women is broad enough to encompass not including the limiting "as much as practicable."
 
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Earthborn said:
Of course it is a propagandistic slogan. It is a political statement, not a statement of biological fact. It is not meaningless though. The people who say it mean they accept transwomen in their adopted gender role, that transwomen have a right to refer to themselves as women and should be treated as women as much as practicable.
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What if I'm willing to accept people into their adopted gender role (even though I very much want to eradicate gender roles as being confining and oppressive)... and I merely disagree with them about what is "practicable" for treating them as women?
 
Emily's Cat said:
I have more difficulty biting my tongue when intoxicated. Which also means that I end up being less willing (or able) to turn the other cheek against persistent incivility, and end up responding in kind. And while that's certainly emotionally satisfactory... it's not indicative of the kind of behavior that I prefer.
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How feminine of you :p Besides, aren't you supposed to be a cat anyway? I mean, it does say "Emily's Cat" and not just "Emily", and I'd expect a cat not to endlessly "turn the other cheek" so it would be in character. ETA: oh, but it does say "rarely prone to hissy-fits" so not in this case I guess.
 
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Earthborn said:
Of course it is a propagandistic slogan. It is a political statement, not a statement of biological fact. It is not meaningless though. The people who say it mean they accept transwomen in their adopted gender role, that transwomen have a right to refer to themselves as women and should be treated as women as much as practicable.
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No.
 
caveman1917 said:
How feminine of you :p Besides, aren't you supposed to be a cat anyway? I mean, it does say "Emily's Cat" and not just "Emily", and I'd expect a cat not to endlessly "turn the other cheek" so it would be in character. ETA: oh, but it does say "rarely prone to hissy-fits" so not in this case I guess.
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I purr more often than I hiss :)
 
Emily's Cat said:
Sorry, but I'm not really catching a meaningful distinction here. I firmly believe that I ought to be 4 inches taller, and I ought to be wealthier, and I ought to be a fair bit thinner... and I require everyone else to treat me as if I were actually 4 inches taller, wealthier, and thinner than I actually am in order to affirm my belief about what I ought to be.
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That's fine if it means you'll accept I'm not staring at your boobs, I'm just noticing how thin you are.
 
Earthborn said:
Of course it is a propagandistic slogan. It is a political statement, not a statement of biological fact. It is not meaningless though. The people who say it mean they accept transwomen in their adopted gender role, that transwomen have a right to refer to themselves as women and should be treated as women as much as practicable.
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If that is the case, I don't understand the fire that is directed at people who say that they don't think trans-women are literally women. The above isn't too far from the appalling transphobe Jordan Peterson's position.
 
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