Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[xjx388]

What a ridiculous thing to suggest.

How so? An unresponsive patient is going to have a bunch of blood drawn for various other tests; just add on “HCG, serum” to the routine blood work...IF it’s a big problem which I have serious doubts about.

 

[theprestige]

Aside from all the transsexual stuff, all I’m saying is that as they are drawing blood for other stuff from an unresponsive patient, it would literally be nothing to include a blood pregnancy test as part of routine tests done. No one has to piss on a stick.

From a larger view, I seriously doubt this will ever be a big issue in EDs. But if it becomes one, there’s an easy fix and that’s what I’m pointing out.

Fair enough. I don't think it's going to be a big issue either. And pissing on a pregancy strip returns a false positive for males anyway, doesn't it?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Aside from all the transsexual stuff, all I’m saying is that as they are drawing blood for other stuff from an unresponsive patient, it would literally be nothing to include a blood pregnancy test as part of routine tests done. No one has to piss on a stick.

From a larger view, I seriously doubt this will ever be a big issue in EDs. But if it becomes one, there’s an easy fix and that’s what I’m pointing out.

There have been multiple times in my life where medical forms ask me about pregnancy and other female specific issues that don't apply to me personally on boiler plate medical history forms.

It's really not a big deal at all to not make assumptions based on appearance.

 

[theprestige]

There have been multiple times in my life where medical forms ask me about pregnancy and other female specific issues that don't apply to me personally on boiler plate medical history forms.

It's really not a big deal at all to not make assumptions based on appearance.

We're not talking about generic one-size-fits-all medical forms. We're talking about medical professionals using their professional judgement to do triage in ERs.

And we're talking about cases where the patients themselves fill out the forms in a misleading way, further hampering effective triage and increasing the risk of harmful outcomes.

 

[Paul2]

How would you, for example, respond to an argument that homosexuality is not real, that homosexuality is a mental disorder, and that (on those grounds) gay rights and protections should not exist?

If you figure that out, you might start to understand the way in which I address arguments that transgender identity is not real etc.

One way to respond is to show them why homosexuality is real (citing It’s presence in the rest of the animal kingdom, for instance), is not a mental disorder (citing presence of happy well adjusted homosexuals), etc.

I have done precisely that type of thing with people, in person, in a bi-weekly forum, for years, with regard to one aspect of my identity that makes me a minority and a markedly distasteful minority to some at times. These arguments were very heated early on, until I learned to stay calm and I understood the benefits of keeping the discussion on an even keel, because there is absolutely no chance for my interlocutor to hear me when things got heated.

There is a time, perhaps, for not staying calm and for not insulting someone . I’m not aware of evidence that shows that insulting someone eventually helps to get through to them, whereas we do have evidence that rational discussion *can* - not in every case, maybe not in a majority of cases, and probably not immediately, and maybe only after a long period of time, with repeated application - help, and maybe not by itself, change minds.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

We're not talking about generic one-size-fits-all medical forms. We're talking about medical professionals using their professional judgement to do triage in ERs.

And we're talking about cases where the patients themselves fill out the forms in a misleading way, further hampering effective triage and increasing the risk of harmful outcomes.

Trans awareness is something that medical staff will have to be trained on, sure.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why not? Makes it more fun to read. Personally I have a rule that I never post unless I'm stoned.

I have more difficulty biting my tongue when intoxicated. Which also means that I end up being less willing (or able) to turn the other cheek against persistent incivility, and end up responding in kind. And while that's certainly emotionally satisfactory... it's not indicative of the kind of behavior that I prefer.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's not cheap in terms of human dignity. Why should a cismale have to piss on a pregnancy strip..

Not 100% certain, but pregnancy tests in hospitals are of the "pee on a strip" kind. If they take a urine sample (which isn't uncommon in the ER), they will check that, but I'm fairly certain that most are done with a blood test (which are very common in the ER).

I've been tested for pregnancy every time I've gone to the ER in my post-pubescent life... and I've never once been asked to pee on a stick.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If it started becoming a problem in medical facilities, it would be nothing to simply make pregnancy tests routine no matter if M or F is listed on the intake sheet. A pregnancy test is super cheap.

How about we just avoid unnecessary tests all around. Hell, next thing, you'll be recommending that we give everyone, regardless of whether it's an M or F on the intake sheet, mammograms, pelvic screenings, ultrasounds to check for fibroids, and prostate exams.

It's absurd to suggest that doctors should do entirely unnecessary procedures on people because a very minute portion of the population is in denial about their biological sex.

 

[xjx388]

Why isn't it enough that there has been rapid progress on the subject of transsexual rights?

I'm going to give you my raw thoughts on the subject. It's hard for me to see a biological male who feels as though they should have been a woman as anything other than a delusion. A delusion, medically speaking is, "A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person’s content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person’s cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true. A person with a delusion will hold firmly to the belief regardless of evidence to the contrary. "

So a person who's objective reality reflects that they are completely biologically male but has a subjective experience that they are actually supposed to have been born in a female body . . . how is that not a delusion?

I accept that the best current treatment for this delusion is to allow the person to transition to the sex they subjectively feel. I have no problem with people getting the surgery and living how they feel comfortable. I will address them as they feel comfortable. I will never make them feel like less of a person because of their delusion.

At the same time, I will never believe that a biological male is actually biologically female.
It simply isn't true and such a belief could act to the detriment of actual biological females. To wit: I don't think it's equitable that a transwoman participates in female sports. I don't think it's equitable that non-female-presenting transwomen should access the same private facilities that actual females do if it makes a significant number of biological females uncomfortable.

For most intents and purposes, I will treat them as equals. I mean, regardless of sex/gender, all people are equals in my view. I want men, women and LGBTQ people to have the same opportunities. Even so, we aren't about to let small, effeminate men into female sports leagues, for example. There are good reasons to have seperate leagues/facilities/etc for different genders -namely that treating everyone as actual equals in every sense (e.g., let men and women compete on the same level in sports or allow men to access women's locker rooms) would have detrimental effects to a lot of people.

I have to accept that I don't have the talent, build, etc to be a football player, as much as I wanted to be. I could never make the team, didn't even get considered. Why don't transpeople have to accept that they are never going to "make the team," so to speak? It's not their fault, for sure, but it's also not society's fault for insisting on necessary boundries.

The first step is acceptance of the rights of transsexuals and I think I and a lot of other people have reached that step. Why isn't that a win? Let's fight for that before we start insisting that everyone believe "transwomen are women."

 

[xjx388]

How about we just avoid unnecessary tests all around. Hell, next thing, you'll be recommending that we give everyone, regardless of whether it's an M or F on the intake sheet, mammograms, pelvic screenings, ultrasounds to check for fibroids, and prostate exams.

It's absurd to suggest that doctors should do entirely unnecessary procedures on people because a very minute portion of the population is in denial about their biological sex.

As I said, I don't think it's ever going to be a big enough problem that pregnancy tests are routine for everyone in the ER. My only point is that the cost of a pregnancy test and the ease of running one is such that there is absolutely no harm in doing so if there was ever any doubt.

And mammograms, pelvic screenings, etc don't even enter into the argument about treating an unresponsive patient in the ER.

The larger point is that the objection, "But what about treatment in the ER," doesn't seem like a valid one when we are discussing the rights of transgendered people. The solution to that problem is so simple as to be trivial.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have noticed Emily and others using older definitions and views of us. The notion that we are men who want to be women was debunked quite a while ago, but that notion persists regardless. It was the common view of us for a long time, but it wasn't accurate.

We accepted that diagnosis at the time because it was better to be seen as delusional than a freak. We know better now.

You are a male human being who believes themselves to be female in their mind. Your deep-seated feeling and belief that you are a woman on the inside doesn't actually make you female, nor does it strip the terms "female" and "woman" of all meaning and replace it with whatever you wish it to be.

You use terms like "debunked" and "older definitions" and "outdated views" quite a bit. But you persistently do so with no supporting evidence, and nothing but your claim to back them up.

There is nothing in any medical or diagnostic references that in any way suggests you are actually a woman and actually a female. There is much in those references that suggests that you believe yourself to be and feel that you are a woman and a female, based on an internal interpretation of what those words mean, and a deep dissatisfaction and discomfort with your body.

Yep, I definitely disagree with you on your views on transwomen in sports, but you aren't actively denying my identity like Meadmaker or Emily do. And their denial of the existence of gender identity makes finding common ground impossible, I am realizing that more and more.

I don't deny your identity. You are who you are. I don't deny that gender identity exists. I just don't accept that your personal, subjective, interpretation of what your gender identity is overrides objective reality, nor that your personal, subjective interpretation of your gender identity entitles you to override the privacy, rights, and progress of female humans.

And here's the crux of the problem.

The only way to satisfy you is to stroke your ego, and affirm your belief about yourself. Your identity isn't a personal identity - the identity that you depend on cannot exist without the consent and pretense of other people.

Transwomen don't want access to female spaces out of a sense of safety and privacy, out of a real recognition of the risk that males present in general. Transwomen don't want to be placed into female wards for their protection alone. Transwomen don't want to be counted as female for women's scholarships, grants, recognition, and short-lists in order to support the equality of females relative to males. Transwomen want it so that you feel better about themselves, so that your belief about yourself is affirmed by external audiences.

Transwomen place their feelings, their need to be validated, as more important than the safety, privacy, dignity, and progress of females. The things transwomen ask for have real world negative consequences for female humans... but they simply don't care. Somewhere along the way, transwomen have decided - without consultation and without consideration - that it's worth it for them that female humans make sacrifices and suffer a bit more so that they can be happier about themselves.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How about we just avoid unnecessary tests all around. Hell, next thing, you'll be recommending that we give everyone, regardless of whether it's an M or F on the intake sheet, mammograms, pelvic screenings, ultrasounds to check for fibroids, and prostate exams.

It's absurd to suggest that doctors should do entirely unnecessary procedures on people because a very minute portion of the population is in denial about their biological sex.

Horse is out of the barn now. Passing trans people exist, including post operative passing trans people.

I see no reason why unnecessary testing need be done, but medical staff will have to be trained to not make assumptions based on gender presentation.

Seems like the easiest solution would be to ask people if they are trans as part of routine medical history collection.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You know, if it will stop you from calling me names and labeling me as a bigot, I'll mouth the words "transwomen are women". It's a meaningless propagandistic slogan, akin to saying "amen" after someone prays over a meal. I won't believe it to be true, and it won't change my views on what transwomen should be entitled to... but if that's the source of your ire, if that's what you need to feel like a whole human, then fine.

 

[Emily's Cat]

She seems to view sex and gender as inseparable from each other, which is a view not supported by the scientific or medical communities, and hasn't been for quite a while at this point.

Citation please. Otherwise, this is a meaningless assertion of a wish as far as I'm concerned. There's an entire sub-forum for this sort of thing.

As this discussion goes on, I see her using more and more TERF rhetoric and tactics. Like twisting herself in all kinds of knots in order to not refer to us as female.

This is beyond irrational. I don't have to twist anything - YOU ARE NOT FEMALE. You aren't. There's no reasonable discussion here, because the objective truth is that you are 46XY male, and you have all of the internal organs, skeletal structure, chromosomes, genetic predispositions, and naturally occurring hormones of a male human being.

I'm sorry if you feel that reality is a "TERF" position.

They are the views of a radical feminist who wants to exclude transpeople (specifically women in this case) because we don't fit her narrow definition of womanhood. And Emily, before you go saying TERF is a bigoted and inaccurate statement again, I would watch this video by Dr. McKinnon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmDauuQOOdU

McKinnon is a quack who very happily uses her male physiology to keep females in lower-positions by winning cycling races where she shouldn't be allowed to compete in the first place. McKinnon is an idiot who pushes the religious and mystical notion that biology doesn't matter and that the rest of the word should bow down to her (and your) demands and stroke her ego so she can feel "affirmed", regardless of how many female humans that hurts or disadvantages.

And you repeatedly dismiss the many things I'm perfectly happy to grant you, and the support that I'm pleased to provide... Because I won't kowtow to your feelings and allow you to roll-back the progress of females over the last fifty years by usurping our positions, our private spaces, and our safety.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems unlikely. Sports organisations have set rules on how transwomen athletes are allowed to compete to minimise their advantage. People only complain about them having an unfair advantage if they are winning, which usually they are not.

That's an interesting take. Given the number of transwomen competing, their rate of wins are staggeringly high per capita relative to those of ciswomen.

God forbid that women would have to compete in those areas against people even more disadvantaged than they are.

Yes, god forbid that those horribly oppressive human females have to compete against those disadvantaged males. It's horribly unfair, indeed.

 

[Tippit]

Why isn't it enough that there has been rapid progress on the subject of transsexual rights?

I'm going to give you my raw thoughts on the subject. It's hard for me to see a biological male who feels as though they should have been a woman as anything other than a delusion. A delusion, medically speaking is, "A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person’s content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person’s cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true. A person with a delusion will hold firmly to the belief regardless of evidence to the contrary. "

Perhaps before it becomes a delusion, it exists as a desire, a want. Perhaps it doesn't become a delusion unless and until others, and then society indulge the desire, propagate it, and then eventually normalize and encourage it. Then it becomes an artifact of some warped intersubjective reality that we have today.

So a person who's objective reality reflects that they are completely biologically male but has a subjective experience that they are actually supposed to have been born in a female body . . . how is that not a delusion?

I accept that the best current treatment for this delusion is to allow the person to transition to the sex they subjectively feel. I have no problem with people getting the surgery and living how they feel comfortable. I will address them as they feel comfortable. I will never make them feel like less of a person because of their delusion.

I do not. I don't see any material difference in transgenders/transsexuals than I do in BID (body-integrity disorders). Should BID sufferers be encouraged to amputate their limps because of how they "feel"? Is this an example of compassion, or of indifferent indulgence? Should people who suffer from suicidal ideation be indulged? What's the end result of that? Death.

At the same time, I will never believe that a biological male is actually biologically female.
It simply isn't true and such a belief could act to the detriment of actual biological females. To wit: I don't think it's equitable that a transwoman participates in female sports. I don't think it's equitable that non-female-presenting transwomen should access the same private facilities that actual females do if it makes a significant number of biological females uncomfortable.

They aren't, and you shouldn't. Nor should you indulge them for one moment, because the insanity is being transmitted to the rest of society, and wreaking cultural havoc.

For most intents and purposes, I will treat them as equals. I mean, regardless of sex/gender, all people are equals in my view. I want men, women and LGBTQ people to have the same opportunities. Even so, we aren't about to let small, effeminate men into female sports leagues, for example. There are good reasons to have seperate leagues/facilities/etc for different genders -namely that treating everyone as actual equals in every sense (e.g., let men and women compete on the same level in sports or allow men to access women's locker rooms) would have detrimental effects to a lot of people.

There is no such thing as equality, there are only these concepts of equality of outcome, and equality under the law. The former being a very bad thing, and the latter a very good thing. These people already have equality under the law. This doesn't mean that the law should be used to force everyone to indulge their delusion, it means that they should be protected from violence, and enjoy all of the same rights that everyone else does - under the law.

They do not get to overturn society.

I have to accept that I don't have the talent, build, etc to be a football player, as much as I wanted to be. I could never make the team, didn't even get considered. Why don't transpeople have to accept that they are never going to "make the team," so to speak? It's not their fault, for sure, but it's also not society's fault for insisting on necessary boundries.

The first step is acceptance of the rights of transsexuals and I think I and a lot of other people have reached that step. Why isn't that a win? Let's fight for that before we start insisting that everyone believe "transwomen are women."

It's a big loss. There will never be enough "progress" for them, until they're convinced that you're convinced of their delusion, and that would mean you and everyone else has gone insane. That would be a catastrophe.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't mean to attack you from your flank, because I generally agree with you otherwise, but...

I think anti-discrimination has gone too far. Shouldn't employers have the right to fire whomever they please? Should they be forced to hire mentally ill people?

Is there any evidence that they are already denied this right? They have the right to buy and rent property, like every other human being. If a landlord doesn't want to rent to such a person, why should the government force them to?

To what end? Should the police respond as if there is a crime when they feel insulted that their particular illness isn't indulged? This would appear to conflict somewhat with your prior statements re: hate speech. I suspect most of them would include that as abuse/harassment (and even violence, as you've pointed out).

All of these are predicated on the assumption that there is no other valid, objective reason for the denials. It has been historically true that fully qualified, well-behaved, and skilled people have been denied jobs and housing for no other reason than because they are black or they are gay or they are female. Those characteristics, in my view, are not sufficient reason to deny people basic services and access to livelihood. I view gender presentation the same way. How someone dresses and presents has no bearing on their ability to do a job, nor should it have any impact on the decision of whether or not to rent or sell a house to them, or whether they should have access to needed basic services.

Mental illness, as a broad-brush category, is also not sufficient. I can see an argument if the illness is one that presents a clear and present danger to other people, or which renders the person unable to function within the bounds of a civil society. But Gender Dysphoria doesn't meet that threshold. Nor does bipolar disorder, autism, or depression... all of which are mental illnesses. Honestly, if someone is functioning under the delusion that aliens visit them every weekend, but it doesn't interfere in their ability to interact and function with other people, that shouldn't by itself be a reason to deny them basic human rights.

 

[Tippit]

All of these are predicated on the assumption that there is no other valid, objective reason for the denials. It has been historically true that fully qualified, well-behaved, and skilled people have been denied jobs and housing for no other reason than because they are black or they are gay or they are female. Those characteristics, in my view, are not sufficient reason to deny people basic services and access to livelihood. I view gender presentation the same way. How someone dresses and presents has no bearing on their ability to do a job, nor should it have any impact on the decision of whether or not to rent or sell a house to them, or whether they should have access to needed basic services.

I'm pro-discrimination. Discrimination is the mark of intelligence. I'm also pro-fairness, from an individual philosophical perspective. The possibility that I, a prospective employer, might deny you, a (hypothetical) transwoman, a job that >I< am providing, at my risk, and my discretion, says nothing about your ability or inability to earn a livelihood somewhere else. The solution to this insidious type of virtue signaling, is always an all-powerful state that stands ready to intervene on behalf of the "oppressed", and punish employers for enjoying their freedom of association. The reality is that people discriminate all the time. Sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. If you believe that restaurant employers should ultimately be forced to hire a bearded man who likes to wear dresses as their "hostess", then you have already indulged in this insanity, and you will eventually concede to demands 3-10 in your list above.

Mental illness, as a broad-brush category, is also not sufficient. I can see an argument if the illness is one that presents a clear and present danger to other people, or which renders the person unable to function within the bounds of a civil society. But Gender Dysphoria doesn't meet that threshold. Nor does bipolar disorder, autism, or depression... all of which are mental illnesses. Honestly, if someone is functioning under the delusion that aliens visit them every weekend, but it doesn't interfere in their ability to interact and function with other people, that shouldn't by itself be a reason to deny them basic human rights.

Not employing someone isn't denying them their basic human rights. No one has a "right" to be employed at a job that you created and offered.

I'm a conspiracy theorist. I am accused of being any combination of stupid and/or mentally ill all the time - and on this forum. Thankfully I'm rich, mostly because I'm intelligent, and I have a very thick skin. That people would not want to associate with me, is their right. That people might want to ban me or censor me from their forum, is ultimately their right. This is the cross I've chosen to bear in my pursuit of what I believe is the truth. Transpeople have made the same choice - the difference is that they have an entire society of virtue-signaling idiots indulging them and supporting them, and I don't.

 

[xjx388]

Perhaps before it becomes a delusion, it exists as a desire, a want. Perhaps it doesn't become a delusion unless and until others, and then society indulge the desire, propagate it, and then eventually normalize and encourage it. Then it becomes an artifact of some warped intersubjective reality that we have today.



I do not. I don't see any material difference in transgenders/transsexuals than I do in BID (body-integrity disorders). Should BID sufferers be encouraged to amputate their limps because of how they "feel"? Is this an example of compassion, or of indifferent indulgence? Should people who suffer from suicidal ideation be indulged? What's the end result of that? Death.



They aren't, and you shouldn't. Nor should you indulge them for one moment, because the insanity is being transmitted to the rest of society, and wreaking cultural havoc.



There is no such thing as equality, there are only these concepts of equality of outcome, and equality under the law. The former being a very bad thing, and the latter a very good thing. These people already have equality under the law. This doesn't mean that the law should be used to force everyone to indulge their delusion, it means that they should be protected from violence, and enjoy all of the same rights that everyone else does - under the law.

They do not get to overturn society.



It's a big loss. There will never be enough "progress" for them, until they're convinced that you're convinced of their delusion, and that would mean you and everyone else has gone insane. That would be a catastrophe.

Equality under the law is exactly what I'm talking about. That should be considered a huge win for the trans community. I want such equality to go further in the law with an explicit declaration in discrimination law.

I think they do get to overturn society to that extent. What they don't get to do is insist that they get special treatment that would act to the detriment of other people.

As I understand things, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, trans people want to be considred for all intents and purposes the sex/gender they feel they are. For example, if they identify as female, they want access to female sports leagues without question. I can't get down with that because it is to the great disadvantage of biological females. I think they just have to accept that their condition is such that they can't participate in major sports.