Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Lithrael]

I'm fine w/ that approach, in terms of how people are socialized, but wouldn't it make the idea of transition from one gender to another sort of vacuous?

No more than the idea of changing one’s name. It doesn’t have to mean something to everyone, in order for it to mean something important to that person.

I’m going to champion again the idea that you can approach gender like religion. Most people identify with the one they were raised in. People have a range of how big of a part of their identity they feel their religion makes up. Some people leave their religion and wish to join another one. Some people would say you aren’t a real (religious identity) unless you were raised experiencing how society treats you as a member of that religion, especially if it’s not the society’s dominant religion. Some people don’t care and can’t see why anyone else’s feelings should have anything to do with them, but still get cranky about someone wanting to be known as a Catholic when they’re obviously actually Muslim. Because words mean something.

Because there’s no defined set of criteria you can use to assert that someone’s self-identification as a member of a particular religion is wrong. Even if they are doing it completely wrong. And yet it’s also true that some people will troll the whole thing and claim membership just to make the whole idea of doing that look stupid. And then complain when they get escorted out of the (religious building) for singing a different religion’s hymns real loud during service. And then pretend that that maps on to bigots wanting to kick out everybody but fundamentalists.

Because to some extent, gender isn’t a set of facts so much as it’s a set of beliefs. And even adherents don’t agree on all of them! But nevertheless it is hugely important to many people, and you can’t fix the problems with it by figuring out exactly which parts are most meaningful or true. And you can’t get society as a whole to sign up for ‘ok, let’s just get rid of it then, it causes more problems than it solves.’ Even if you think that’s where we’re headed, if we’re lucky.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't really get your point here.

The biological male who wrote that article says that they have gender dysphoria, but that they don't identify as a (trans) woman. And each to their own.

But that has nothing at all to do with the fact that those males who do identify as women should be considered to be women.

Did you even actually read it?

She has gender dysphoria, is actively living and presenting in a feminine way... but is smart enough to know that "transwomen are women" is just not true.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Anyway... down the internet rabbit hole and I ended up here:
Mothers Day 2017 Special: Should Trans Women Also Get to Celebrate "Mother's Day?" Trans 101, #3

I mean, just... seriously?

This is a video that explicitly encourages children whose parent's aren't supportive enough of their gender identity to run away and go join their "glitter queer" family? It encourages children to make contact with adult transgender people as a substitute that is "just as meaningful as our blood families". And then it goes on to pretty much preach that Mother's Day should be about transgender mommies too. I just, I dunno.

Boudicca - you need to campaign to get a higher quality of spokesperson for your movement.

 

[Elaedith]

I don't really get your point here.

The biological male who wrote that article says that they have gender dysphoria, but that they don't identify as a (trans) woman. And each to their own.

But that has nothing at all to do with the fact that those males who do identify as women should be considered to be women.

Yes she does identify as a transwoman.

She doesn't agree with gender identity ideology. Because she's good at critical thinking, and knows it's dangerous, regressive, postmodern pseudoscience. And has nothing to do with gender dysphoria (pretending it does is the con trick).

 

[Boudicca90]

Yes she does identify as a transwoman.

She doesn't agree with gender identity ideology. Because she's good at critical thinking, and knows it's dangerous, regressive, postmodern pseudoscience. And has nothing to do with gender dysphoria (pretending it does is the con trick).

I don't know why I would be surprised about finding transgender TERFs, but here we are. Her (his?) views are not representative of us at all and is something I see a lot in older transpeople who have self hate and doubt of themselves. I can only hope that she comes to accept herself as a woman in the future, instead of being fed gender critical crap.

 

[Lithrael]

And then it goes on to pretty much preach that Mother's Day should be about transgender mommies too. I just, I dunno.

Oh, come on. Unless you’re about excluding stepmoms from Mother’s Day celebrations, and consider it to be for Made A Baby badge earners only, I don’t see why not.

 

[Boudicca90]

Anyway... down the internet rabbit hole and I ended up here:
Mothers Day 2017 Special: Should Trans Women Also Get to Celebrate "Mother's Day?" Trans 101, #3

I mean, just... seriously?

This is a video that explicitly encourages children whose parent's aren't supportive enough of their gender identity to run away and go join their "glitter queer" family? It encourages children to make contact with adult transgender people as a substitute that is "just as meaningful as our blood families". And then it goes on to pretty much preach that Mother's Day should be about transgender mommies too. I just, I dunno.

Boudicca - you need to campaign to get a higher quality of spokesperson for your movement.

I agree with her video 100% and have subscribed to her channel. She makes a great spokeswoman for us and our issues.

A lot of us have to deal with abusive and/or unsupportive parents and it is sometimes best to remove yourself from the situation for your own safety and health, it's the same thing with gay kids and teens. You shouldn't have to deal with homophobia or transphobia in your own home.

And transwomen are absolutely moms, unless they don't feel comfortable being called that. I know if I become a parent in the future, I would definitely consider myself their mother.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes she does identify as a transwoman.

She doesn't agree with gender identity ideology. Because she's good at critical thinking, and knows it's dangerous, regressive, postmodern pseudoscience. And has nothing to do with gender dysphoria (pretending it does is the con trick).

I'm sure the world's experts on the relevant medical disciplines (neurology, psychology, psychiatry) and those who put together DSM-5 would be interested to hear your *authoritative* opinion.......

 

[d4m10n]

Where you say "certain rights", I say that some people within this thread even refuse to accept the truth in the aphorism "trans women are women".

No kidding! There's even this one ******* who actually said "I don't believe that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sport at any sort of significant competitive level."

ETA: Just joking about the ******* bit.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh, come on. Unless you’re about excluding stepmoms from Mother’s Day celebrations, and consider it to be for Made A Baby badge earners only, I don’t see why not.

And mothers of adopted children, and foster mothers, and mothers whose children have been borne by surrogates, and lesbian partners......

 

[Earthborn]

Well no, because a desire to change sex characteristics in gender dysphoria is only a product of the fact that gender and sex are so intertwined in society.

I think you got that the wrong way round. Because gender and sex are so intertwined in society, the desire to change sex characteristics leads to a desire to change gender expression.

I don't for example, think that there are many (if any) people with gender dysphoria whose sole desire - in terms of their gender dysphoria and change of gender identity - is to alter their physical appearance in order to more closely resemble the opposite biological sex to their birth sex.

In many people it seems to be the main desire though. The way transgender individuals express their gender is quite varied and often non-conformist in some way.

Well perhaps. But I think there's a good reason why it's called "gender dysphoria", and not "(biological) sex dysphoria".

I don't think there is such a good reason. It was just called that a long time ago by a guy called John Money who believed "gender identity" is completely independent from biological sex and entirely the result of how a child is raised. The name just stuck.

If transition from one gender to the other is generally the best treatment for gender dysphoria, yes.

If one wants to traverse a plain from one side to another, there does not need to be a chasm making the journey difficult just so you can say there two sides of the plain.

 

[LondonJohn]

Did you even actually read it?

She has gender dysphoria, is actively living and presenting in a feminine way... but is smart enough to know that "transwomen are women" is just not true.

I notice your careful dancing around "...presenting in a feminine way".

Because this person appears to have something akin to "(biological) sex dysphoria", as opposed to gender dysphoria: they are stating that they feel that they want a female body, but they are also stating that they do not want to live as a woman (despite the fact that she labels herself a trans woman, it would appear that she is using the term "woman" in a biological sense rather than a gender sense).

And indeed, it would appear that this person may not meet the DSM-5 criteria for gender dysphoria (where "gender" is specifically defined as a social construct based on the lived experience of "woman", as opposed to the biological sex of "female")

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know why I would be surprised about finding transgender TERFs, but here we are. Her (his?) views are not representative of us at all and is something I see a lot in older transpeople who have self hate and doubt of themselves. I can only hope that she comes to accept herself as a woman in the future, instead of being fed gender critical crap.

She doesn't read as if she's full of self hate and doubt though. She seems to accept herself quite well.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I notice your careful dancing around "...presenting in a feminine way".

Because this person appears to have something akin to "(biological) sex dysphoria", as opposed to gender dysphoria: they are stating that they feel that they want a female body, but they are also stating that they do not want to live as a woman (despite the fact that she labels herself a trans woman, it would appear that she is using the term "woman" in a biological sense rather than a gender sense).

And indeed, it would appear that this person may not meet the DSM-5 criteria for gender dysphoria (where "gender" is specifically defined as a social construct based on the lived experience of "woman", as opposed to the biological sex of "female")

No, she just acknowledges that "woman" isn't merely a feeling in someone's head.

 

[LondonJohn]

No kidding! There's even this one ******* who actually said "I don't believe that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sport at any sort of significant competitive level."

ETA: Just joking about the ******* bit.

Was this an attempted "gotcha"? I'm confused.

Because my point was this:

1) Meadmaker's made a claim that the only "dissenters" in this thread were only doing so on the basis of a few specific areas of proposed transgender rights.

2) I then responded to this by saying (effectively) that it was actually about a lot more than just querying a few specific proposed transgender rights. I said that in fact, for some within this thread, it was even a refusal to accept that (for example) trans women are women.


Now I'm guessing - from what you've written here - that you're suggesting that a) a belief that trans women should not be allowed to compete in high-level women's sport, is incompatible with b) a belief that "trans women are women" - and that in fact (a) flatly contradicts (b)? Would that be a reasonably accurate understanding of the words you've written above here?

 

[LondonJohn]

No, she just acknowledges that "woman" isn't merely a feeling in someone's head.

And again, I suggest she contact the world's experts (and her own government) to let them know this revelatory finding.

 

[Elaedith]

I'm sure the world's experts on the relevant medical disciplines (neurology, psychology, psychiatry) and those who put together DSM-5 would be interested to hear your *authoritative* opinion.......

Gender ideology does not come from DSM-5, although it has now infected clinical practice.

I am not particularly worried about who might or might not be interested in hearing my opinion. It is not as if one can safely publish an opinion in this area anyway, unless one enjoys living very dangerously.

However, I am reasonably confident that my opinions in this area are more 'authoritative' (in the sense you are using this term), than are yours.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And again, I suggest she contact the world's experts (and her own government) to let them know this revelatory finding.

How about you provide links to some of those experts that corroborate the interpretation that you're peddling?

 

[Elaedith]

I'm sure the world's experts on the relevant medical disciplines (neurology, psychology, psychiatry) and those who put together DSM-5 would be interested to hear your *authoritative* opinion.......

Oh, and you did see what the TRAs did to the Chair of the working group (Ken Zucker) who revised the relevant parts of the DSM-5, right? I posted about it a couple of times.

Not to mention copious material from other experts critical of current ideology and practice.

I have to wonder if you are bothering to look at any evidence at all.

 

[Boudicca90]

She doesn't read as if she's full of self hate and doubt though. She seems to accept herself quite well.

She accepts your version of "transsexualism", where we are just men pretending to be women. And yes, she seems fine with it, probably due to her guilt over her autogynephilia driving her to not authentically think of herself as a woman.

She is not representative of us at all, but it must be nice to find a trans ally of your own. It's always possible to find people who will argue against their own interests. Look at Black Republicans for example.