Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Meadmaker said:
No one, and I mean literally no one, who participates in this thread or its predecessors, is "opposed to transgender rights in practice". They (and by they I mean we) are opposed to certain rights (or should I say "rights") for transgenders, but not other rights.
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But don't you see - it's all or nothing! If you don't fully agree with every demand made, then you're a bigot and a transphobe, and if you happen to be female... you're also a TERF! Sex-based rights are unimportant and outdated. How someone claims to feel on the inside is the only thing that really matters, and if you can't see that, then you're barely even human, and you're deserving of othering and abuse.

My frustration level is high.
 
Emily's Cat said:
From whence comes your authoritative knowledge?
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From whence does it come? I don't really need or want to tell you (though in general terms, it involves a former partner....). Suffice it to say that I'm correct*, which is all that really matters at the end of the day, is it not?

So maybe a little less of stuff like...

"You seem to have a habit of speaking quite authoritatively on topics where you have no authority whatsoever"

...from now on, please? Challenge my views/opinions, certainly. But don't challenge my right or my authority to express those views/opinions. OK?


* And, incidentally, I wouldn't have written what I wrote on this matter if I did not know that it was correct.
 
Emily's Cat said:
You can hold whatever personal opinion you like. Your personal opinion and assumptions aren't authoritative though.
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*sigh*

Nor are yours. Nor are those of any single person in this thread unless they have declared a (verifiable) level of professional expertise in any given matter.

Just stop with this "...aren't authoritative" crap, please?
 
Meadmaker said:
No one, and I mean literally no one, who participates in this thread or its predecessors, is "opposed to transgender rights in practice". They (and by they I mean we) are opposed to certain rights (or should I say "rights") for transgenders, but not other rights.
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Hmmmm.

Where you say "certain rights", I say that some people within this thread even refuse to accept the truth in the aphorism "trans women are women".

So, y'know....
 
LondonJohn said:
That's true. But that's only because until fairly recently, the prevailing belief was that gender identity was inextricably bound to biological sex* - and that therefore it made no sense to draw any distinction between sex and gender, since they were effectively interchangeable and synonymous.

Fortunately (not just for those who have gender dysphoria, but also for society as a whole) we now know differently.


* ie the belief was that all biological females were women, and that all women were biological females (and likewise with males/men)
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To carry this forward to the next step,

  • while gender and sex are not synonymous, and
  • gender is not inextricably bound to sex, but
  • sex may have some influence on gender. For instance, more testosterone tends to greater aggressiveness, which leads to some/many/most societies connecting masculinity and aggressiveness, and yet the masculinity as a gender could be defined as not necessarily aggressive.
 
LondonJohn said:
Hmmmm.

Where you say "certain rights", I say that some people within this thread even refuse to accept the truth in the aphorism "trans women are women".

So, y'know....
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Some people would grant transgender people certain rights.

Some people refuse to accept the truth of "trans women are women".


Yes. Indeed. Both statements are true.

Moreover, the intersection of the sets of "some people" is non-zero.
 
Emily's Cat said:
But don't you see - it's all or nothing! If you don't fully agree with every demand made, then you're a bigot and a transphobe, and if you happen to be female... you're also a TERF! Sex-based rights are unimportant and outdated. How someone claims to feel on the inside is the only thing that really matters, and if you can't see that, then you're barely even human, and you're deserving of othering and abuse.

My frustration level is high.
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Indeed.
 
LondonJohn said:
Hmmmm.

Where you say "certain rights", I say that some people within this thread even refuse to accept the truth in the aphorism "trans women are women".

So, y'know....
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:rolleyes: It's a dumb assertion and not an aphorism at all, right up there with "Allah is God". There's nothing "true" about it, it's an assertion based on a desire.

Transwomen are transwomen
Transwomen are male
Transwomen wish to be treated as women are treated
Transwomen should be treated as women in many circumstances

Those are all statements that I accept as true. The one you want me to accept is not true for any rational and non-tautological meaning of the word "women" and is the pathway to removing and subverting the sex-based rights of females.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
But don't you see - it's all or nothing! If you don't fully agree with every demand made, then you're a bigot and a transphobe, and if you happen to be female... you're also a TERF! Sex-based rights are unimportant and outdated. How someone claims to feel on the inside is the only thing that really matters, and if you can't see that, then you're barely even human, and you're deserving of othering and abuse.

My frustration level is high.
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Nope. This is a straw man (if I'm allowed the authority to make that claim...)
 
LondonJohn said:
That's true. But that's only because until fairly recently, the prevailing belief was that gender identity was inextricably bound to biological sex...
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Let's take a step back here. This isn't a "prevailing belief". Up until recently, gender identity didn't exist as a concept at all. It wasn't a thing. Up until recently, gender was defined as synonymous with human biological sex. It was literally a case of Mare : Horse :: Cow : Bovine :: Doe : Deer :: Woman : Human

It wasn't a prevailing belief, it was the existing definition of the word itself.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
:rolleyes: It's a dumb aphorism, right up there with "Allah is God". There's nothing "true" about it, it's an assertion based on a desire.
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Whence do you derive the authority to make this statement?

Because in fact, the mainstream medical community, and the world's actual experts, disagree wtih your analysis here.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Let's take a step back here. This isn't a "prevailing belief". Up until recently, gender identity didn't exist as a concept at all. It wasn't a thing. Up until recently, gender was defined as synonymous with human biological sex. It was literally a case of Mare:Horse::Cow:Bovine::Doe:Deer::Woman:Human

It wasn't a prevailing belief, it was the existing definition of the word itself.
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There you go with those definitions again. When, oh when, can we disregard not just definitions, but the very concept of definitions? They are so oppressive. Rise up and burn your dictionaries! Only then can you be free!
 
Emily's Cat said:
Let's take a step back here. This isn't a "prevailing belief". Up until recently, gender identity didn't exist as a concept at all. It wasn't a thing. Up until recently, gender was defined as synonymous with human biological sex. It was literally a case of Mare:Horse::Cow:Bovine::Doe:Deer::Woman:Human

It wasn't a prevailing belief, it was the existing definition of the word itself.
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But..... in essence, that's exactly what I said.

And it's nonsense to suggest that "gender identity didn't exist as a concept" up until the transgender identity issue arose. For decades and decades (and beyond even that), there have been things around like "what does it mean to be a man".

And who can forget Shania Twain's "Man, I feel like a woman" (released in - from memory - around 1998 or 1999?)?

All of those sorts of things are explicitly discussing gender identity. Yes, gender identity happens to map directly onto biological sex here (as I said before), but nevertheless everything which discussed the lived experience of being a man or a woman was explicitly (and solely) dealing with gender identity.
 
LondonJohn said:
Whence do you derive the authority to make this statement?

Because in fact, the mainstream medical community, and the world's actual experts, disagree with your analysis here.
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No they don't. Gender ideology comes from postmodern queer theory taught in gender studies departments, spread through social media to narcissistic middle class kids looking for something to make them feel important, and imparted to institutions by highly funded activist groups with no science qualifications.

No matter how many times you repeat this nonsense it will not become true.
 
Elaedith said:
And where does that leave transgender people who disagree with gender identity ideology? Presumably you think they are delusional. It doesn't sound very enlightened to me.
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I don't really get your point here.

The biological male who wrote that article says that they have gender dysphoria, but that they don't identify as a (trans) woman. And each to their own.

But that has nothing at all to do with the fact that those males who do identify as women should be considered to be women.
 
Elaedith said:
No they don't. Gender ideology comes from postmodern queer theory taught in gender studies departments, spread through social media to narcissistic middle class kids looking for something to make them feel important, and imparted to institutions by highly funded activist groups with no science qualifications.

No matter how many times you repeat this nonsense it will not become true.
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I mean, you really believe all of this??

Wowwwwww. Were we talking about "outliers" recently....?
 
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