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The Girl with "X-ray" vision

Let me see if I grasp this.

Epiphenomenalism holds that:

1. Consciousness exists
2. It is caused by physical processes
3. It can cause nothing

I think that’s it. Not hard so far.


Now regarding the refutation of epiphenomenalism:

1. We are conscious and have experiences

2. The experience is separate from our awareness of it

I don't know what "2" means. I have experiences (these could be perceptual experiences eg redness, or experiences of pain, love, thoughts etc. Consciousness is simply the same thing as the totality of ones experiences. Also, as I noted in my refuation of epiphenomenalism, consciousness or a string of experiences is not the same as the self. The self provides the metaphysical glue uniting experiences into a family).

Getting too complex again! LOL
 
Interesting Ian said:
I don't know what "2" means.


It's my 'boiling down' of the following from your proof:

Interesting Ian said:
2) Now if epiphenomenalism is true, then when I assert I know with complete certitude I am conscious and am now experiencing, for example, greenness, this is wholly and entirely caused by an unbroken chain or chains of physical cause and effect, most notably occurring within the brain. Most crucially consciousness together with my actual experience of greenness -- which is distinct from such physical events even though caused by them -- plays absolutely no role whatsoever in my utterance that I am conscious and am now experiencing greenness.



Interesting Ian said:
Consciousness is simply the same thing as the totality of ones experiences.


On one hand, I want to say that that is simply an empty statement adding no value to the discussion.

On the other, I want to say that it contradicts this (which, btw, I did understand from your proof):

Interesting Ian said:
Also, as I noted in my refuation of epiphenomenalism, consciousness or a string of experiences is not the same as the self. The self provides the metaphysical glue uniting experiences into a family

You are defining Self and Consciousness in the same way, simply using different words.
 
Something Wiki This Way Comes...

(Since this is the thread on the Girl with "X-ray" Vision, I'm going to be rude and interrupt this discussion on consciousness):rolleyes:

I'm totally abandoning my efforts to correct the false and misleading information that has been added to the Wikipedia article on Natasha Demkina. The editor, who has been trying to moderate the dispute, believes that he has done the right thing by simply rewriting the false and misleading statements that were added by Julio Siquiera -- the Victor Zammit-Wannabe from Brazil -- to give his "facts" and opinions a more neutral point of view (NPOV in Wiki-speak). Unfortunately, it seems Wikipedia editors and administrators, may believe that a neutral point of view sometimes should override the need to be factual and accurate.

About two weeks ago, Siquiera vandalized the Wikipedia Natasha Demkina article, filling it with outrageous falsehoods (i.e. Andrew Skolnick's M.S. from Columbia University is "phony"; the appendix and esophagus cannot be seen by X-rays; Skolnick is lying about the number of test cards -- there were seven, not six; -- ad nauseum). I protested his vandalism and formally requested moderation and that the article be locked in the version before Siqueira's attack, until the dispute can be settled. Well, the article is now locked, but not before an editor rewrote it to make the howlings of the rabid anti-skeptic sound more neutral and therefore accurate.

For example, Siqueira added a false statement to the article stating that the appendix and esophagus cannot be seen with X-rays. He then defended the falsehood by partially and deceptively quoting an online source, which only says that it's hard to DIAGNOSE APPENDICITIS, since the appendix can extend in a number of directions and the pain from an infected appendix may be mistaken as coming from the colon, uterus, etc. The reference does not say that the appendix is hard to find. It's not.. A first-month medical student should be able to find it. The reference says that appendicitis -- INFLAMATION of the appendix -- is hard to DIAGNOSE because the end of the inflamed painful appendix may be lying in an unusual position.

I pointed all this out this attempt to deceive to the editor and what did he do to "correct" the dishonest text? He wrote:

"Furthermore, some point out, the location of the appendix with the body can vary, and this can cause difficulty in diagnosing appendicitis even by medical experts."

He took the fangs out of Siqueira's statement, but left in the claws that gut the truth.

I wrote the editor privately yesterday so as not to embarrass him and pointed out this and many other examples of where his rewrite had merely poured room deodorizer over the festering wounds of the corrupted article. (Almost a mixed metaphor, but not really.) ;)

Without first asking me, the editor posted my email on the Wikipedia discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Natasha_Demkina&oldid=31272374 and addressed my points, rather unsatisfactory. (His lack of netiquette in publishing my email without first asking is the final nail in the coffin of my dealings with Wikipedia.) Here's part of his explanation why he added that misleading statement, confusing appendix with appendicitis and serving Siqueira's purpose to make readers think an appendix is hard to find even for experienced doctors (never mind a poor, young, innocent uneducated girl from the impoverished boondocks of Russia, who was under much stress from jet lag and having to deal with the negative energies put out by the manipulative and dishonest skeptics, yada yada):

"That is, in effect, the mechanics of reaching POV neutrality -- including both sides. I am sorry that you expected NPOV to be otherwise.

I should probably take this moment to impress upon you that Wikipedia is not a medical journal. Falsities are one thing; but to exclude a point of view from a topic article is another thing altogether. What I think you are having a problem with is expecting this to be a medical journal article, which you are accustomed to, and not something more layperson-accessible.

No, sir, I was expecting it to be an encyclopedia article. I have written several articles for Collier's and Encyclopaedia Brittanica. So I was under the assumption that articles in Wikipedia should also be truthful and as accurate as editors can make them, and not include statements that may mislead or misinform.

Siquiera defended this with a link to a page on Group Health Cooperative which specifically asked and answered the question "Why is appendicitis sometimes hard to diagnose"? So without opposing material, I find it difficult to reject this.

Clearly, he permitted Siqueira to put a good one over him -- even though I had explained on the discussion page why this citation is deliberately misleading. We had not asked Natasha to diagnose appendicitis. We had asked her to find the appendix or lack of one. So how did the editor justify including this misleading red herring?

[The editor's rewrite of] the article does not say that she was asked to diagnose appendicitis. The mention of appendicitis is to support the assertion that the appendix can be in a number of locations, and this can affect medical diagnoses related to it.

I throw up my hands. We asked Demkina to find the person who had no appendix. It can be difficult for doctors to diagnose appendicitis. However, it's not difficult for a them to FIND an appendix using x-rays or other suitable radiological procedures. A blind butcher with a scalpel can find the appendix without any problem. Any medical schools student should be able to find it on a competent X-ray. It's that pinky-sized pouch that's attached to the large intestine right next to where it joins the small intestine. That does not vary (except in people who don't have an appendix -- and apparently in Wikipedialand). The distal end of the appendix may lie in a number of positions (causing confusion if it becomes inflamed because the pain may seem like it's coming from a different organ), but the proximal end is always attached near the junction of the small and large intestines. And intestines -- described by Natasha as "vacuum cleaner hoses" -- were among the first organs she claims to have ever seen with her special vision.

In reply, the editor said:

But what about without radiology? Was radiological-analogous ability what you were testing Demkina for?

SWISSSSSSSSSH! Right over his head. We were not testing Natasha's "radiological" abilities. We were testing her claim to be able to see organs inside of people's bodies with the accuracy of doctors, if not better. And -- contrary to the obfuscation that is now in the Wikipedia entry -- doctors have no trouble finding the appendix using radiology.

Natasha on the other hand, claimed in our test to see an appendix in two people who had theirs removed, and claimed to not see one in a woman who still had hers. Hence Siqueria's successful effort to use Wikipedia to mislead readers into thinking that doctors, like Natasha, sometimes have a lot of trouble finding the appendix.

So here's the lesson I learned from all this. If I want to become a Wiki editor, this is how I probably should write a simple account of the Nazi Holocaust from a NPOV:

"While most historians believe the Holocaust exterminated most of the Jews in Europe, some others, including noted British historian David Irving, say that it's a cruel myth created by the power-hungry Jews as part of their conspiracy to rule the world."

See, I'm being very careful to include the views of both sides -- after all, the latter view is widely taught in elementary schools and schools of higher education in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and many other Islamic countries and it shouldn't be the job of encyclopedia editors to help readers distinguish truth from falsehoods.

Wikipedia is becoming the post-modernist encyclopedia of our times.

The above is just one of many examples of Siequeria's success in corrupting the Wikipedia article. If anyone thinks that I'm being hard on the editor, consider how happy the editor has made the Victor Zammit wannabe. This morning, Siqueira posted this on the Wiki discussion page:

:Keith, I have now read the entry the way you rewrote it. I think it is quite acceptable, some parts of it being nearly perfect indeed. Surely I will have very few suggestions. I will have some comments (feedbox) to it, and to this talk page too, later on. Best Regards. [[User:Julio Siqueira|Julio Siqueira]] 14:25, 14 December 2005

Clearly, Siqueira believes his efforts to rewrite history have been successful.

I do too.:boggled:
 
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Sorry to hear all that, askolnick.

It took me a while to make the connection, but "Sisquieria" finally dawned on me from the discussion here right after the test.

He can come across as both objective and reasonable to the unwary. It is only on digging a bit that one realizes how he distorts things.

Open Mind was a big fan of his.

Regarding Wikipedia itself, I've never used it, but at least one of my children does. I'll have to let him know to be wary.
 
Wary of Wiki

And this episode underscores a major difficulty in combating unfounded beliefs, one that surfaces even when the person you are debating is him/herself honest though misinformed--

the discussion can quickly bog down in the credibility of sources.

When your test with Natasha came up here, it was mainly (but not solely) me debating a fellow called Open Mind.

He pointed me to Siqueira to discredit you and Wiseman. I had to dissect pages and pages of his stuff to point out the pattern of distortions and flaws, which of course, kept me from talking about the test itself for much of the debate.

Then it switched to Josephson because Siquiera mentioned him.

And on and on.

It's a frustrating fight, but it needs to be fought. Continuously and repeatedly.

Thanks for your account of your experiences with Siqueira. It closely matches mine and other's I now know about. You're spot on in describing his methods to confuse and to deceive. And it works: Just look how he's got the Wiki editor to make and publicly defend some truly incredible mistatements. The editor, Keith Tyler, emailed me a little while ago and I just replied with this:

Keith, I gave you the benefit of doubt and didn't want to embarrass you for adding so many misstatements and misleading errors to the article. I wanted to give you a heads up. I regret that now because I no longer think you are concerned about accuracy. You appear much more concerned about balancing "points of view." To see how good a balancing job you've done, read what Siqueira just posted to Museum of Hoaxes. He's in danger of grinning himself to death:

"Yes, Archangel, Skolnick got defeated at wikipedia, as we can see from his desperate letter (blackmail...)...The War is Over. The Allies Have Won! It is time to Party. GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN
Posted by Julio Siqueira on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 07:15 AM"

The fact that you can say, "I can't be responsible for JS's actions. If MoH is really such a laughable site, why do you follow it with such rapt attention?", suggests that you do not have sufficient understanding of publishing, the laws regarding defamation, or, I'm sorry to say, common sense. When two individuals, one hiding behind anonymity and the other protected by geographical location, are using that skeptic's web site to defame me, I have good reason to monitor it. I also monitor Wikipedia, even though, based on recent news articles, it too is at risk of becoming "a laughable site". What else would you call an encyclopedia that allows an anonymous defamer to falsely claim a former journalist had been accused of being involved in the Kennedy assassination? Or that confuses being able to find an appendix with being able to diagnose appendicitis? Or makes dozens of other errors, such as calling people, who had their appendix out as kids, "sufferers"? Or to misrepresent finding a healthy appendix or surgical staples left after a long-healed procedure as "diagnosing ailments"?

Or one who would replace an accurate statement with the following: "Demkina still exhibited a better-than-average ability to diagnose internal ailments without help of trained medical assistance or technology," when the test never measured Natasha's ability to diagnose internal ailments nor even speculated as to what would be a "better-than-average ability to do so?

This is simply incompetence that serves those wishing to mislead and deceive. I tried to keep this private between us. You wanted to make it public. Fine. That was your call.

You rewrote the Natasha Demkina article not only without a functioning understanding of medicine, but also, apparently, without reading my complaints and explanations on the discussion page. You incorrectly claimed that much of that information there was not available to help you rewrite the Demkina article. I was stunned to read this considering how much time I spend to provide you with the information. You also apparently didn't read the only published reports of the CSMMH-CSICOP test because you similarly claimed not to have the information that is reported there. You state, for example, that you don't understand what is meant by Natasha's false negatives and false positives. Had you read the published reports, you would know.

So, Keith, how can you possibly be qualified to edit this article? Why would you even try?

You are complaining about my interest in writing a "negative piece" on my Wiki experiences. If you mean that you are concerned that I want to write an article about my negative Wiki experiences, you'd be justified. But I would write a fair and accurate article, no matter what my experiences were. And it would be, by far, more accurate and fairer than your statement: "To know that the Skeptical Inquirer will add to the anecdotal, unresearched, and entirely misunderstanding negative publicity for the most successful online collaborative project to date is something of concern." You "know" no such thing, because it's not true.

One last point on a matter of civility: You simply ignored my objection over your violation of common netiquette. Whatever your reasons for publishing my email on the discussion page, you still did not ask first. So it's not just your gross ignorance of the subject that makes you unsuitable to be an editor, it's also your disregard for fairness and courtesy.

Sincerely,
Andrew

Garratte, as you astutely noted, Siqueira's strategy is to constantly throw up more and more sand into people's eyes. It becomes very difficult for them to find tehir way back to the actual debate, which he has so dishonestly misrepresented.

And you're right. If we don't keep fighting these guys, they will succede in making us live a world that is flat, but at least it will be in the center of the universe and once again haunted by demons and all those other things-that-go-bump-in-the-night.

-Andrew
 
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And this episode underscores a major difficulty in combating unfounded beliefs, one that surfaces even when the person you are debating is him/herself honest though misinformed--

the discussion can quickly bog down in the credibility of sources.

When your test with Natasha came up here, it was mainly (but not solely) me debating a fellow called Open Mind.

He pointed me to Siqueira to discredit you and Wiseman. I had to dissect pages and pages of his stuff to point out the pattern of distortions and flaws, which of course, kept me from talking about the test itself for much of the debate.

Then it switched to Josephson because Siquiera mentioned him.

And on and on.

It's a frustrating fight, but it needs to be fought. Continuously and repeatedly.
 
The Snake in the Wiki Basket...

And this episode underscores a major difficulty in combating unfounded beliefs, one that surfaces even when the person you are debating is him/herself honest though misinformed--

the discussion can quickly bog down in the credibility of sources.

When your test with Natasha came up here, it was mainly (but not solely) me debating a fellow called Open Mind.

He pointed me to Siqueira to discredit you and Wiseman. I had to dissect pages and pages of his stuff to point out the pattern of distortions and flaws, which of course, kept me from talking about the test itself for much of the debate.

Then it switched to Josephson because Siquiera mentioned him.

And on and on.

It's a frustrating fight, but it needs to be fought. Continuously and repeatedly.

Thanks for your account of your experiences with Siqueira. It closely matches mine and other's I now know about. You're spot on in describing his methods to confuse and to deceive. And it works: Just look how he's got the Wiki editor to make and publicly defend some truly incredible mistatements. The editor, Keith Tyler, emailed me a little while ago and I just replied with this:

Keith, I gave you the benefit of doubt and didn't want to embarrass you for adding so many misstatements and misleading errors to the article. I wanted to give you a heads up. I regret that now because I no longer think you are concerned about accuracy. You appear much more concerned about balancing "points of view." To see how good a balancing job you've done, read what Siqueira just posted to Museum of Hoaxes. He's in danger of grinning himself to death:

"Yes, Archangel, Skolnick got defeated at wikipedia, as we can see from his desperate letter (blackmail...)...The War is Over. The Allies Have Won! It is time to Party. GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN
Posted by Julio Siqueira on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 07:15 AM"

The fact that you can say, "I can't be responsible for JS's actions. If MoH is really such a laughable site, why do you follow it with such rapt attention?", suggests that you do not have sufficient understanding of publishing, the laws regarding defamation, or, I'm sorry to say, common sense. When two individuals, one hiding behind anonymity and the other protected by geographical location, are using that skeptic's web site to defame me, I have good reason to monitor it. I also monitor Wikipedia, even though, based on recent news articles, it too is at risk of becoming "a laughable site". What else would you call an encyclopedia that allows an anonymous defamer to falsely claim a former journalist had been accused of being involved in the Kennedy assassination? Or that confuses being able to find an appendix with being able to diagnose appendicitis? Or makes dozens of other errors, such as calling people, who had their appendix out as kids, "sufferers"? Or to misrepresent finding a healthy appendix or surgical staples left after a long-healed procedure as "diagnosing ailments"?

Or one who would replace an accurate statement with the following: "Demkina still exhibited a better-than-average ability to diagnose internal ailments without help of trained medical assistance or technology," when the test never measured Natasha's ability to diagnose internal ailments nor even speculated as to what would be a "better-than-average ability to do so?

This is simply incompetence that serves those wishing to mislead and deceive. I tried to keep this private between us. You wanted to make it public. Fine. That was your call.

You rewrote the Natasha Demkina article not only without a functioning understanding of medicine, but also, apparently, without reading my complaints and explanations on the discussion page. You incorrectly claimed that much of that information there was not available to help you rewrite the Demkina article. I was stunned to read this considering how much time I spend to provide you with the information. You also apparently didn't read the only published reports of the CSMMH-CSICOP test because you similarly claimed not to have the information that is reported there. You state, for example, that you don't understand what is meant by Natasha's false negatives and false positives. Had you read the published reports, you would know.

So, Keith, how can you possibly be qualified to edit this article? Why would you even try?

You are complaining about my interest in writing a "negative piece" on my Wiki experiences. If you mean that you are concerned that I want to write an article about my negative Wiki experiences, you'd be justified. But I would write a fair and accurate article, no matter what my experiences were. And it would be, by far, more accurate and fairer than your statement: "To know that the Skeptical Inquirer will add to the anecdotal, unresearched, and entirely misunderstanding negative publicity for the most successful online collaborative project to date is something of concern." You "know" no such thing, because it's not true.

One last point on a matter of civility: You simply ignored my objection over your violation of common netiquette. Whatever your reasons for publishing my email on the discussion page, you still did not ask first. So it's not just your gross ignorance of the subject that makes you unsuitable to be an editor, it's also your disregard for fairness and courtesy.

Sincerely,
Andrew

Garratte, as you astutely noted, Siqueira's strategy is to constantly throw up more and more sand into people's eyes. It becomes very difficult for them to find tehir way back to the actual debate, which he has so dishonestly misrepresented.

And you're right. If we don't keep fighting these guys, they will succede in making us live a world that is flat, but at least it will be in the center of the universe and once again haunted by demons and all those other things-that-go-bump-in-the-night.

-Andrew
 
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All I can say is thank you for your kind comments and for your efforts.

Keep it up. It's good work you do.
 
Siquiera defended this with a link to a page on Group Health Cooperative which specifically asked and answered the question "Why is appendicitis sometimes hard to diagnose"? So without opposing material, I find it difficult to reject this.
Clearly, he permitted Siqueira to put a good one over him -- even though I had explained on the discussion page why this citation is deliberately misleading. We had not asked Natasha to diagnose appendicitis. We had asked her to find the appendix or lack of one. So how did the editor justify including this misleading red herring?
In fact, from what has been said about it here (I haven't seen the original source) this source is doubly irrelevant, as it is presumably talking about the difficulty of diagnosing appendicitis from the observed symptoms which, obviously, is not what Natasha claims to do.
 
Originally Posted by Interesting Ian :
Running means nothing over and above certain leg processes carried out in a specific environment resulting in movement of ones body relative to the ground. This is transparently clear.

Garrette
I could as easily and legitimately state that Consciousness means nothing over and above certain neurological processes carried out in a specific environment resulting in a neurologically-based awareness relative to one's experiences.?

You have failed to understand.

This is where people get confused and bewitched by language. Similar sounding sentences but completely and totally different.

Running really does mean literally certain leg processes carried out in a specific environment resulting in movement of ones body relative to the ground. It's the very meaning of running.

On the other hand any physical process is just that. It may give rise to consciousness, but the very meaning of any physical process is self-evidently not consciousness. If I bounce a ball that is not consciousness! It may cause or elicit consciousness, but in and of itself a bouncing ball is not literally numerically identical to consciousness. Neither are leaves blowing in the breeze (although that activity might elicit conscious). Neither is a boulder rolling down a hill (although that activity might elicit conscious). Neither is the Earth orbiting the Sun (although that activity might elicit conscious). Neither are the firing of neurons (although that activity might elicit conscious).
 
Interesting Ian said:
You have failed to understand.

It wouldn’t be the first time; I am not really even a dabbling philosopher, but honestly I don’t think that is the case in this instance.


Interesting Ian said:
This is where people get confused and bewitched by language. Similar sounding sentences but completely and totally different.

I am aware that similarity in sound does not equate to similarity in meaning, but I do not see its application in this case.




Interesting Ian said:
Running really does mean literallycertain leg processes carried out in a specific environment resulting in movement of ones body relative to the ground. It's the very meaning of running.

On the other hand any physical process is just that. It may give rise to consciousness, but the very meaning of any physical process is self-evidently not consciousness.

This is where we part. It may perhaps be the common belief, but it is certainly not self-evident that the physical process is not consciousness.

You are using a consciousness-of-the-gaps method to prove your claim.


Interesting Ian said:
If I bounce a ball that is not consciousness! It may cause or elicit consciousness, but in and of itself a bouncing ball is not literally numerically identical to consciousness. Neither are leaves blowing in the breeze (although that activity might elicit conscious). Neither is a boulder rolling down a hill (although that activity might elicit conscious). Neither is the Earth orbiting the Sun (although that activity might elicit conscious). Neither are the firing of neurons (although that activity might elicit conscious).

It may seem I don’t understand your point, but I do. I happen to disagree, or, more accurately, hold the position that you have not proven your case.

First, I do not see it as a given that bouncing a ball or rolling a boulder etc etc “elicit conscious,” unless you mean that the chain of physical (neurological?) processes which results in the conscious is partly modular, as it were, and the ball-rolling module right now replaced the module of chair-sitting from a moment ago. That is what seems, in this context anyway, “self-evident,” and it does not support your contention.

Second, you have yet to demonstrate that the firing of neurons is not consciousness (or some other more accurate neurological process besides firing of neurons). You simply claim it is not so because you claim it is self-evident.

---

I would also appreciate it if you address two of my other points:

1. You have given a definition of consciousness (the totality of our experiences) which, besides being useless, does not differentiate it from Self, which you insist is different.

2. How do you support your claim that experiences themselves are not causally efficacious? And where does epiphenomenalism claim this?
 
[Growling sound in background]

Agree.

All we need to do is get him to change his dog avatar to a cat avatar..... ;)

My beautiful, sweethearted, 9-month old, >85-lb Labrador would tear the throat out of anyone who tries to do that.

(With his tongue.) :D
 
My beautiful, sweethearted, 9-month old, >85-lb Labrador would tear the throat out of anyone who tries to do that.

(With his tongue.) :D
Ewwwlll.........

Sorry, you can't be a skeptic if you don't favor cats over dogs. Forum rules.
 
Ian said:
If brain processes give rise to consciousness, then consciousness is distinct from those processes.
Brain processes give rise to some internal experiences that we call consciousness. The experiences are distinct from the processes in the same way that the blueness of the sky is a concept distinct from the processes that cause the sky to appear blue. However, the experiences are still a result of the processes.

But it is those physical processes in the brain, and those processes alone, which wholly determine everything we ever say, do or think. But that is epiphenomenalism which I've just refuted.
These processes determine everything we think, including our feelings about experiences (qualia). What part of "mind" does that leave over to be an epiphenomenon?

I simply do not understand how we can talk about any experience that we've labeled an epiphenomenon, including any thoughts we've had about epiphenomenalism itself.

I think this definition might describe what philosophers really mean when they say epiphenomenon:

http://www.phil.vt.edu/Valerie/6014/glossary.html

~~ Paul
 
Garrette said:
Second, you have yet to demonstrate that the firing of neurons is not consciousness (or some other more accurate neurological process besides firing of neurons). You simply claim it is not so because you claim it is self-evident.
I think it is fair to say that the firing of neurons is not equal to the experience of consciousness, for some definition of equal. We can also say "gives rise to," "forms," "results in," "emerges from," and many other similar phrases. If Ian could explain what he means using crisper terms, we might understand him. It certainly makes no sense to say "numerically equal" in this context.

Ian: If you could explain how "consciousness must be fundamental because it is not the same as brain processes" differs from "sticking to the Earth must be fundamental because it is not the same as gravitational processes," we might understand you better.


~~ Paul
 
Fair enough, Paul. We're already in a topic in which I am at best poorly informed; now we may be getting into distinctions which I am unequipped to handle.

Fun to try, though.
 

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