Trump's tax returns

[BobTheCoward]

Yes, you can indeed use arbitrary and nonsensical standards, nobody can stop you. Go for it!

I don't know what would count as not arbitrary.

 

[Bob001]

First, how much taxes did he pay in the years in which he did pay? Second, why would you expect him to pay income taxes in years in which he lost money?

Seriously, how do you think the tax code works?

Trump presented himself to America and was ultimately elected as a brilliant businessman. But a brilliant businessman doesn't lose so much money than he owes no taxes most years. His core public identity is a lie. Beyond that, there are real doubts about whether his loss numbers are legitimate. If he was misvaluing properties, overvaluing losses and costs, paying himself through shell companies, claiming personal spending as business expenses, etc., that's all outright fraud. The bottom line is that Trump has never been what he pretended to be, and his taxes prove it.

Here's the NYT story from two years ago about Trump's tax scams:

President Trump participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents, an investigation by The New York Times has found.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Take a guess.

I'm not going to hunt that down. Looks to me like you misinterpreted something.

I'm not outraged. It's more pathetic than anything else. The point, which you are studiously ignoring, is that people try to reduce their tax liability. You're outraged that Trump did so to a greater degree. But that's the way the tax laws are written.

No Zig, it is not about degree.

Unless something illegal happened (and the NYT isn't alleging that anything was), then the fact that he reduced his tax liability to such a degree isn't a strike against him. It is possibly a strike against the tax code, but even there, the analysis provided by the NYT isn't enough to draw such conclusions.

Well something illegal probably did happen, according to the IRS and the NY State AG.

 

[Aridas]

1. I doubt Trump thinks, much less that far ahead.
2. I doubt it will matter. Trump is not scared of getting caught in some paradoxical "gotcha" moment. He'll tell his supporters one thing, then turn and in the same breathe tell the IRS another, and he will not lose a second of sleep over it. Telling two things at once has worked for him so far, no reason to think it will stop.

For example - Trump loses a court case and pays a large fine, among other consequences. 5 minutes later, he's very publicly claiming that it's a nothingburger and he just graciously donated some amount to the government.

Breaking my self-imposed silence on political issues to provide a Rush report. I know most people here don't listen to Rush, but they are curious how he and other high profile conservative yappers will respond.

The first words out of his mouth on his radio show today were, if I recall correctly, "They keep recycling this stuff." In other words, his take was that there was nothing to see here and we already knew everything and none of it matters anyway.

Sounds about right. Trump was previously caught being involved in massive tax fraud and the story effectively vanished in, what, 2 days?

You are dreaming about a different electorate. In the real world 50% of the US electorate would view such tax evasion as a virtue.

I strongly disagree. "Ignorable fault," perhaps, but not a virtue. Also, it's worth remembering that Trump voters in 2016 were far closer to a third than a half of the US electorate and, IIRC, more people simply didn't vote than voted for Trump (or Hillary).

I'm sure your online persona "Has no opinion" about Trump.

Remember who you're talking to?

 

[Stacyhs]

Ron Akerman, the former Asst. Special Watergate Prosecutor and former Asst. US Attorney, SD of NY says it looks like both Trump and Ivanka engaged in classic tax fraud when Trump wrote off almost $750K in 'consulting fees' to her and she wrote them off, too. If he weren't president now, they'd both be indicted. Looks like both Daddy and First Daughter will be needing that pardon. Maybe they'll need an entire First Family pardon.

 

[Andy_Ross]

When this is all over Trump, his family and his associates are all going to be in prison.

they will fill a whole prison wing, give them the one on the west.

 

[Brainache]

Peter Strzok notes that even after the President leaves office, his knowledge of the nation's deepest secrets doesn't evaporate. Trump owes as much as a half-billion dollars, some to foreign interests. What might he give up to a foreign power who offered relief?

I just tried to imagine how that might go:
Unnamed Foreign Leader: OK Mr Trump we will forgive your debts if you tell us the US Military secrets that you learned as President.

Trump: You didn't call me "Sir"...

UFL: Talk, pig.

T: I... er... it's hydrosonic.

UFL: What?

T: The weapon. They say it's hydrosonic, but in fact it's super-duper. Not many people know that...

UFL: We need to talk specifics here "sir"...

T: Oh, well it is specific. It's the most specific super-duper hydrosonic rocket ever...

UFL: So it's a rocket?

T: I never said rocket. It might be a rocket, it might not... you know my uncle was a rocket scientist? He made big rockets, the biggest. Of, course in those days no one even knew what hydrosonic was, but we do and we got 'em. They're the best...

UFL: OK Mr Trump, I guess we'll have to take the money...

T: What money?

 

[Aridas]

For those who feel like it, here's a handy summation of a bunch of the numbers.

To poke at one of the not so poked at numbers - $95,464

That's the total sum nine of Trump’s companies have paid as expenses to style Ivanka Trump’s hair.

I'm reminded a little of the conniption that certain groups had about AOC spending $300 on her hair out of her own pocket and fully expecting them to have not a bit to say about Ivanka's hair expenses.

 

[Cain]

I'm reminded a little of the conniption that certain groups had about AOC spending $300 on her hair out of her own pocket and fully expecting them to have not a bit to say about Ivanka's hair expenses.

That's completely different and you know it. First of all, AOC's a Dem. Second, what about this wire transfer to Hunter Biden?

 

[SezMe]

Wait. $750?

That means Trump pays more for sex than he pays in taxes.

Which is upside down since Trump gets off on cheating on his taxes even faster than a quickie with a hooker.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I wonder what the next NYT reports on the taxes will be.
I would love to learn specifics about loans from Deutsche Bank and the role of Anthony Kennedy junior.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's completely different and you know it. First of all, AOC's a Dem. Second, what about this wire transfer to Hunter Biden?

 

[Stacyhs]

Here's my prediction if Trump loses the the election:

Trump pardons his entire family for all federal crimes sometime between the confirmation of Biden's win and Jan 19th, 2021.
On January 19th or just before, Trump resigns. Pence is sworn in. He pardons Trump for all federal crimes. Trump then leaves for Mar a Lago.

 

[Craig4]

Here's my prediction if Trump loses the the election:

Trump pardons his entire family for all federal crimes sometime between the confirmation of Biden's win and Jan 19th, 2021.
On January 19th or just before, Trump resigns. Pence is sworn in. He pardons Trump for all federal crimes. Trump then leaves for Mar a Lago.

All likely. Won't do a thing to stop the State of New York investigation. There's a grand jury investigation that Trump can't stop. He may have issues in New Jersey and Virginia that might cause him some problems.

 

[Cain]

Here's my prediction if Trump loses the the election:

Trump pardons his entire family for all federal crimes sometime between the confirmation of Biden's win and Jan 19th, 2021.
On January 19th or just before, Trump resigns. Pence is sworn in. He pardons Trump for all federal crimes. Trump then leaves for Mar a Lago.

Trump cares mostly about himself, so he should have President Pence pardon the entire family. The Republican Party might be on board as a thank you (or quid pro quo) for the third Supreme Court justice. It could also help the Republican brand, sparing them of another "hoax" investigation/scandal. It would mean the GOP refuses to undergo deTrumpification, and things could get even worse.

 

[Stacyhs]

All likely. Won't do a thing to stop the State of New York investigation. There's a grand jury investigation that Trump can't stop. He may have issues in New Jersey and Virginia that might cause him some problems.

Agreed. That's what gives me hope that he will pay for his crimes. He can't do a damn thing about his state crimes. I'm just as happy with a NY State orange jumpsuit as a US Federal orange jumpsuit.

I'd love for them to put him on display behind bars and sell tickets. They'd make a fortune. They could sell rotten eggs to throw at him.

 

[Segnosaur]

Here's my prediction if Trump loses the the election:

Trump pardons his entire family for all federal crimes sometime between the confirmation of Biden's win and Jan 19th, 2021.
On January 19th or just before, Trump resigns. Pence is sworn in. He pardons Trump for all federal crimes. Trump then leaves for Mar a Lago.

I could see a potential problem with that.

I remember someone here mentioning that when you grant a pardon,

1) it has to be for specific offences (i.e. you can't grant a blanket "you are absolved of all crimes". So Trump's crimes would have to be enumerated. Not sure if Trump would want that to happen, or if Pence would be willing to grant a pardon in those circumstances. (Not saying that Pence has any integrity, but he may not want to make himself look bad should he decide to stay in federal politics.)

2) The pardon has to be accepted, and it is sometimes viewed as an admission of guilt. So while Trump might be clear of federal charges, he would be making it much easier for the states to prosecute him over similar crimes, since he would have admitted his guilt by accepting the pardon.

 

[Giordano]

IIRC it is considered de facto evidence of tax evasion to run a business year after year that loses money. Don’t at least many of Trump’s businesses, such as his golf chains, display this behavior?

 

[Stacyhs]

I could see a potential problem with that.

I remember someone here mentioning that when you grant a pardon,

1) it has to be for specific offences (i.e. you can't grant a blanket "you are absolved of all crimes". So Trump's crimes would have to be enumerated. Not sure if Trump would want that to happen, or if Pence would be willing to grant a pardon in those circumstances. (Not saying that Pence has any integrity, but he may not want to make himself look bad should he decide to stay in federal politics.)

2) The pardon has to be accepted, and it is sometimes viewed as an admission of guilt. So while Trump might be clear of federal charges, he would be making it much easier for the states to prosecute him over similar crimes, since he would have admitted his guilt by accepting the pardon.

1). Not true. It's called a "blanket pardon":

Q: Can a president issue a blanket pardon to an individual for crimes that may have been committed in the past but have not yet been discovered?

A: Yes. That’s just what Gerald Ford did when he granted “a full, free, and absolute pardon” to Richard Nixon for crimes he “has committed or may have committed” while in office.

Pence would just have to issue a blanket pardon for any crimes Trump may have committed in connection with his federal taxes.

2) Pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt. We've been through this discussion before. Do you think Trump would give a rat's ass what anyone thought if it got him free and clear?

 

[JoeMorgue]

As has been proven a billion times now questions of "Can Trump do that? (Which includes people doing other things for Trump)" cannot be answered with "Well the rules say he can't do that" if there isn't a solid, non-ambiguity plan with the agreement of people in positions of power to actually enforce that plan, in place before the fact for when he does it that includes "And who exactly is making this legal decision that Trump doesn't have in his pocket?" and "Who exactly is going to enforce this legal decision that Trump doesn't have in his pocket?"

Fine. We all agree that Trump can't be issued this kind of pardon. What happens when it happens anyway?

"Trump can do anything he wants until someone stops him" is well established precedent.