Trump's tax returns

[Trebuchet]

On the lawsuit ... a defamation suit would be a tough sell. It's a very, very high bar if you're dealing with a public figure.

That's certainly true. But Trump has long used lawsuits as a tool of intimidation. Even if a suit gets thrown out, the target has to spend time and money defending himself. If/when he wins he might be awarded compensation for his expenses, but that's never guaranteed. Meanwhile, during the months, maybe years, that the suit winds its way through the courts, Trump can say "That guy's lying and I'm suing him for it!" Sounds good to his base.

That's true in the case of little companies that Trump sues when they try to get paid what he owes them. He's not going to intimidate the New York Times. They are probably hoping he'll sue so all the documents come out in court. But he won't, even he knows better than that. There's little doubt he'll threaten to sue, but no suit will ever be filed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

When Trump releases his tax returns,...oh, wait....I can just stop there, can't I?

There's a reason he's been fighting so hard not release them and we're beginning to see why. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Rick Santorum said in an interview that this doesn't show more than the two years of tax returns he already released.

You know, the couple pages sans any details, those tax records.

More to follow.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Rick Santorum said in an interview that this doesn't show more than the two years of tax returns he already released.

You know, the couple pages sans any details, those tax records.

More to follow.

Why the heck are people talking to Rick santorum these days?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Eric Trump Tweeted

@EricTrump
When was the last time Biden donated his salary back to the federal government? Asking for a friend...

 

[Andy_Ross]

Charlie Kirk (Chair of 'Trump Students') tweeted

@charliekirk11
Who leaked Trump’s tax returns to The New York Times?
26 U.S. Code § 7213 makes it illegal to disclose unauthorized information, including tax returns
If true—there should be felony charges leveled.
RT if DOJ should immediately investigate the Times and their sources!

 

[Bob001]

Most people don't have very complex taxes, and when they do overpay they tend to get it back as a refund. Trump does have very complex taxes, and he didn't get back his overpayment as a refund.
He used it as a carryover to apply to future taxes, because (get this) he expected his future taxes to be larger.

Which is why focusing on one or two years of his liability being really low is disingenuous.
....

Yes it is. And that's what you're doing. From the NYT:

Donald J. Trump paid $750 in federal income taxes the year he won the presidency. In his first year in the White House, he paid another $750.

He had paid no income taxes at all in 10 of the previous 15 years — largely because he reported losing much more money than he made......
The New York Times has obtained tax-return data extending over more than two decades for Mr. Trump and the hundreds of companies that make up his business organization, including detailed information from his first two years in office.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html

 

[Trebuchet]

Charlie Kirk (Chair of 'Trump Students') tweeted

@charliekirk11
Who leaked Trump’s tax returns to The New York Times?
26 U.S. Code § 7213 makes it illegal to disclose unauthorized information, including tax returns
If true—there should be felony charges leveled.
RT if DOJ should immediately investigate the Times and their sources!

Would those be the fake returns that were totally made up by the failing NYT?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I guess you can if you carry forward an *enormous* "loss".

I buy an asset for $billions and immediately write off most, if not all, of its value. I then use that "loss" to offset my profits in later years.

At some point in the future I may dispose of that asset - at which point in time there may be a significant capital gain. Then again, if I hang on to the asset for long enough I may get enough taper relief (if such a thing exists in the US tax code) so as not to have to pay any taxes.

Also, with enough companies in enough countries, there are opportunities for all kinds of tax shenanigans. My company in a tax "efficient" jurisdiction can charge my company in the US, or me, huge fees. My US company therefore makes a loss and my foreign company pays little or no taxes. AIUI a lot of movie companies use this kind of accounting to make sure that phenomenally successful films (like the Harry Potter franchise) somehow make a paper loss.

Based on reviewing some old data and looking at the NYT article again, here are those offset losses:

From the NYT:

Fragments of Mr. Trump’s tax returns have leaked out before.

Transcripts of his main federal tax form, the 1040, from 1985 to 1994, were obtained by The Times in 2019. They showed that, in many years, Mr. Trump lost more money than nearly any other individual American taxpayer. Three pages of his 1995 returns, mailed anonymously to The Times during the 2016 campaign, showed that Mr. Trump had declared losses of $915.7 million, giving him a tax deduction that could have allowed him to avoid federal income taxes for almost two decades. Five months later, the journalist David Cay Johnston obtained two pages of Mr. Trump’s returns from 2005; that year, his fortunes had rebounded to the point that he was paying taxes.

Once he started making money, out came new write-offs.

As his celebrity income swelled, Mr. Trump went on a buying spree unlike any he had had since the 1980s, when eager banks and his father’s wealth allowed him to buy or build the casinos, airplanes, yacht and old hotel that would soon lay him low.

When “The Apprentice” premiered, Mr. Trump had opened only two golf courses and was renovating two more. By the end of 2015, he had 15 courses and was transforming the Old Post Office building in Washington into a Trump International Hotel. But rather than making him wealthier, the tax records reveal as never before, each new acquisition only fed the downward draft on his bottom line.

But these purchases weren't from the income he had, they were from loans, explaining the big loan coming due and Eric Trump's slip up that Russian money was funding those golf courses.

And it seems Trump wanted a lot of those taxes he paid in back (maybe by backdating the debt??).

In fact, confidential records show that starting in 2010 he claimed, and received, an income tax refund totaling $72.9 million — all the federal income tax he had paid for 2005 through 2008, plus interest.

So he releases a couple 1040s (or someone did ) claiming he paid these moderate sums of taxes when in reality, what a scam on the US public. Those are the same taxes he applied for and got back that are now subject to an IRS action (what Trump claims is an audit) to take back.

 

[Modified]

When they put out their data for peer review, I will be willing to accept their claim.

I'm an author on numerous peer-reviewed papers, and have reviewed several. No reviewer has ever asked for original notes, data, or other proof that our source data was legitimate. At least in my field, that is not generally how peer review works. The concern is whether or not the work is sufficiently novel, meaningful, complete, and otherwise worthy of publication. This work certainly is.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Would those be the fake returns that were totally made up by the failing NYT?

More cognitive dissonance (paraphrasing):

Trump: "That information was obtained illegally."

Trump: "Fake news, those aren't my tax returns."

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

 

[Andy_Ross]

From a Tweet

ABC: Trump Craps on America!
CNN: Trump Craps on America!
MSNBC: Trump Craps on America!
BBC: Johnson Craps on us but not as bad as Trump Craps on those poor, daft bastards in America.
FOX: Crap is good for you and delicious!
OANN: I wish He would Crap on me.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I'm an author on numerous peer-reviewed papers, and have reviewed several. No reviewer has ever asked for original notes, data, or other proof that our source data was legitimate. At least in my field, that is not generally how peer review works. The concern is whether or not the work is sufficiently novel, meaningful, complete, and otherwise worthy of publication. This work certainly is.

Why would I need the data to proof the new york times is credible? Of course they are credible. I have no doubt to the veracity of the information they put out.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Most people don't have very complex taxes, and when they do overpay they tend to get it back as a refund. Trump does have very complex taxes, and he didn't get back his overpayment as a refund.

He used it as a carryover to apply to future taxes, because (get this) he expected his future taxes to be larger.

Not sure where you got this from.

See my post above.

... Kind of like the Clintons deducting their donation of used underwear?

If that wasn't kosher, then by all means, the IRS should go after him for it. But nobody here is in a position to really evaluate that.

Did you actually look at the details here or are you just relying on Grover Norquist's outrage?

As governor of Arkansas in 1986, Clinton hand wrote a $6 charity deduction for "3 pr. underwear" that even today are only valued at $1 each, according to the analysis from Americans for Tax Reform. He also claimed $75 for "Garbardine suit - ripped pants" valued by Salvation Army this year at $10-$60.

The total of 17 items was $555. Are you seriously comparing that to Trump's tax deduction shenanigans?

For just 10 items the Clintons overvalued in their 1986 tax returns, said the group headed by Grover Norquist, they were able to take a write-off of over $1,500 in 2016 dollars.

Notice he even inflated it to 2016 dollars to make a greater outrage impact.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

From a Tweet

ABC: Trump Craps on America!
CNN: Trump Craps on America!
MSNBC: Trump Craps on America!
BBC: Johnson Craps on us but not as bad as Trump Craps on those poor, daft bastards in America.
FOX: Crap is good for you and delicious!
OANN: I wish He would Crap on me.

Sad.

 

[Ziggurat]

Not sure where you got this from.

Take a guess.

Did you actually look at the details here or are you just relying on Grover Norquist's outrage?

I'm not outraged. It's more pathetic than anything else. The point, which you are studiously ignoring, is that people try to reduce their tax liability. You're outraged that Trump did so to a greater degree. But that's the way the tax laws are written. Unless something illegal happened (and the NYT isn't alleging that anything was), then the fact that he reduced his tax liability to such a degree isn't a strike against him. It is possibly a strike against the tax code, but even there, the analysis provided by the NYT isn't enough to draw such conclusions.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So... a takeaway is that about $4 Billion of Trump's supposed worth seems to have been conjured out of the void, and with about that much substance to it.

How convenient. Trump can claim a 4 billion dollar loss when he's out of office and his reputation tarnished.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Take a guess.



I'm not outraged. It's more pathetic than anything else. The point, which you are studiously ignoring, is that people try to reduce their tax liability. You're outraged that Trump did so to a greater degree. But that's the way the tax laws are written. Unless something illegal happened (and the NYT isn't alleging that anything was), then the fact that he reduced his tax liability to such a degree isn't a strike against him. It is possibly a strike against the tax code, but even there, the analysis provided by the NYT isn't enough to draw such conclusions.

It is a strike against him. I can determine anything I wish, and the necessary threshold, as a strike.

 

[Andy_Ross]

wrong thread

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes it is. And that's what you're doing. From the NYT:

First, how much taxes did he pay in the years in which he did pay? Second, why would you expect him to pay income taxes in years in which he lost money?

Seriously, how do you think the tax code works?

 

[Ziggurat]

It is a strike against him. I can determine anything I wish, and the necessary threshold, as a strike.

Yes, you can indeed use arbitrary and nonsensical standards, nobody can stop you. Go for it!