Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[cullennz]

Where or where would women be if there weren't men around to tell them what it feels like to be a woman, what things are important to women, what to be afraid of, etc?

On behalf of males everywhere I guess I'll just say : you're welcome, ladies.

Well they would'nt have the vote for starters

Given we gave it to them.

Please please.

No need to thank me. I wasn't around.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's a really peculiar conspiracy theory. Instead of a small subset of bad men posing a real threat to women, men in general have brainwashed women into believing in a nonexistent threat.

Why didn't I get the memo so I could do my part?

One reason that males are better at being women is that without a uterus they aren't susceptible to hysteria. Also, they are congenitally resistant to the brainwashing of the patriarchy.

Thank you for that, those made me laugh.

 

[theprestige]

I am an actual real human female!

It's weird that you keep coming back to this error, after having been corrected more than once.

What's going on?

 

[cullennz]

It's weird that you keep coming back to this error, after having been corrected more than once.

What's going on?

Emily's Cat is now not female?

 

[LondonJohn]

Once again:

Whatever anyone feels about continuing dominion of men over women within society, and the disadvantages suffered by women as a result (and both of those things most certainly still exist, though thankfully at much, much lower levels than even a generation ago)...

...the issue of the medico-legal recognition of gender dysphoria and transgender rights is no more a "men lording it over women" situation than was the medico-legal recognition of homosexuality and gay rights. And in both of those cases, it's important that public attitudes shift accordingly.

IF situations arise where rulings linked to legislation end up resulting in a clear linkage to (eg) crimes being committed, then clearly those rulings will need to be reconsidered in that light.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am an actual real human female! You can reduce me down to stereotypes all you want to, dehumanize me so I'm not a part of your exclusive club.

Gender is about far more than biology. I may not have all the same biological functions you do, but society treats me the same as you, or at least should. Both positively and negatively.

Sex is not gender.

Holy cow, let me repeat that a bit louder: SEX IS NOT GENDER

You are not an actual real human female. You are an actual real human male. I am not dehumanizing you by saying so - you are, in matter of fact, actually for really real, male. Your sex is male. Your sex is not female.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Emily's Cat is now not female?

I dunno. But apparently by sex isn't important. I mean, it's not like biological sex was the reason for discrimination against women that continues in the present or anything. Nope. Not at all. Not important.

 

[Ron Obvious]

Sex is not gender.

Holy cow, let me repeat that a bit louder: SEX IS NOT GENDER

You are not an actual real human female. You are an actual real human male. I am not dehumanizing you by saying so - you are, in matter of fact, actually for really real, male. Your sex is male. Your sex is not female.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" -- George Orwell.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm assuming everyone knows that the original post here was a satire, right?

You mean Earthborn's? I don't know, was it? Could be, I'm willing to accept it was if she says so. But I see crazier stuff said in earnest. To make it obvious that it's satire, you've got to really go overboard, not just in ideas but also in presentation, like Titania McGrath.

 

[Paul2]

Would it be uncivil for, say, a homosexual man to insult someone who was espousing anti-gay bigotry?

Person A holds view X, and thinks X is not bigoted. Person B thinks view X is bigoted (and, bigoted against person B). They both want to discuss their disagreement about view X. Is it uncivil for person B to insult person A in their discussion?

I think there must be some space in which any idea can and should be discussed civilly. Otherwise, nothing (or very little) can be discussed. Consider some discussion about whether racism exists, and where, and how, in which a call for incivility against those seen as racists is justified by the idea that such discussion, and implicit endorsement of racist ideas, causes harm. That standard, though - the standard that a discussion should be shut down, or that incivility is called for - when consistently applied, would prevent discussion about which health insurance model should be adopted, because all insurance models except the best one will actually kill more people than the best one (and which is the best one is exactly the issue under discussion). Now that's some harm, and it's real and undeniable. Are we to shut down civil discussion about health care insurance?

 

[LondonJohn]

You mean Earthborn's? I don't know, was it? Could be, I'm willing to accept it was if she says so. But I see crazier stuff said in earnest. To make it obvious that it's satire, you've got to really go overboard, not just in ideas but also in presentation, like Titania McGrath.

Well yeah, I guess so. I certainly thought Earthborn's statement read as satire when I first read it. However, if it was meant earnestly, then I'd definitely disagree with it.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I don't think you've understood what that specific poster was saying, but trying to go back and sort it all out would require going down that rabbit hole.

I'm pretty sure I understood what she was saying, and it made sense to me.

Do me a favour and paraphrase because I maybe doing her a grave injustice currently then.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It is now the law in California that prisoners are to be housed based on their self proclaimed gender identity. Their request to be housed based on their gender identity can only be denied for “management or security concerns.”

http://https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/518459-newsom-signs-law-allowing-transgender-inmates-to-be-placed-in-prison-by

That sounds right.

People should generally be allowed to live how they please unless there is good reason to deny it.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yep, when I joined Planet Fitness I had to sign up with my drivers license. Nothing wrong with that. When I transitioned while going there, they just had to update my info and I was good to go. A trans man actually helped me out with that because he recognized I was transitioning but still iffy about myself, so he asked me if I wanted to change my info.

I did have to update my gender marker on my license beforehand, and NV made it a lot easier to do that by not requiring medical documentation beforehand (Self ID essentially), but the change in the laws happened after I did everything already.

UK driving licenses don't have your gender on them I don't think. Not everyone has a passport, I think it's about 3/4 of people here. And it's not cheap to renew.

I'm trying to think in the UK what you could use to prove your gender and I think only birth certificate or passport would cut it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Do me a favour and paraphrase because I maybe doing her a grave injustice currently then.

My paraphrase (and I hope I am remembering everything correctly).

There ought to be a medical examination required before any recognition of transgender status. While there is currently a medical requirement, it is made absurd by laws which essentially require the doctor to sign off on any claim presented, so the medical signoff required today is a sham. Essentially, it's paper-pushing, so of no value. It should be replaced with an actual medical requirement, requiring the doctor's actual professional judgement.

 

[LondonJohn]

That sounds right.

People should generally be allowed to live how they please unless there is good reason to deny it.

Yes.

I'd expect - within reason and within staffing constraints - some additional level of staff supervision to be allocated towards transgender inmates: out of concern both for those trangender inmates' protection and for the protection of other inmates.

But if, for example, a trans woman inmate physically or sexually attacks another women inmate, I'd expect the full force of the law to come down upon that trans woman inmate - as it should do.

And if, for example, a situation ever emerges in which (eg) trans women inmates are exhibiting a pattern of behaviour concerning physical and sexual violence towards other women prisoners, then I'd expect the regulations to be re-examined in that light.


In unrelated news: I'm currently eating a good-sized bowl of large, delicious, sweet, deep purple raspberries which I picked from my own potted raspberry canes in my own garden - it's nearly unheard of for Southern UK to be capable of producing this quality of raspberry crops right at the end of September

 

[LondonJohn]

UK driving licenses don't have your gender on them I don't think. Not everyone has a passport, I think it's about 3/4 of people here. And it's not cheap to renew.

I'm trying to think in the UK what you could use to prove your gender and I think only birth certificate or passport would cut it.

UK driving licences don't clearly and explicitly list gender, no. But your gender status IS reported (albeit somewhat covertly) within your driving licence number: from memory, it's to do with the second digit (your licence number always starts with the first five letters of your family name IIRC) - if that second digit is a 0, it denoted man; if it's 1, it denotes woman.

I might be slightly out with my precise description, but it's at least something close to this, and a gender marker definitely does exist.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That’s a bit of straw. What do birth certificates have to do with anything?

I’m not sure about where you live, but my Illinois drivers license is my legal ID. People who don’t drive get a state ID card, which is identical to the drivers license. I have to present it to buy alcohol or tobacco, write a check, board an airplane, and several other things.

In fact, I had to present it to sign up for the gym. (Must be over 18 to sign the contract and also to use the tanning beds.

The idea of carrying birth certificates is silly. No one is proposing that.

Legally, you are allowed to eject someone, but you need to be able to show a reason. You can confront someone, but they aren’t required to show ID. (Of course, the gym already has my ID information to support their reasoning.)

What you are saying is that the segregation of locker rooms is already unenforceable. Which means a cis man, effectively can use the women’s locker room if he likes. Because the only thing stopping him is social pressure.

So all facilities are effectively unisex.

It seems like most people on both sides want segregated locker rooms and expressly want to keep cis men out. But any tool that would accomplish that is objectionable.



And that’s the problem. Without a clear objective method of determining who has access, there is no way to enforce it. The ID cards most everyone carries has your legal sex/gender on them, so on its face it’s an easy way to resolve questions. Some women (both cis and trans) would be offended if asked to show it though. So I don’t see a solution.

Lack of a solution does not make the problem disappear, however.

OK Maybe on this one I am being UK specific but we don't have a lot of official ID here. I don't think a UK driving license has gender/sex on it. I don't actually remember but i googled it and the example i saw if name DOB and address and photo. So I think it's going to have to be passport or birth certificate, and not everybody has a passport. The UK is a bit of an outlier on official ID i know.

On the second point, I think yes you can eject someone for reason. But that's kinda what I was saying. You can eject someone for reason, so if you don't have a reason why do you need to eject someone? The only point of difference is whether the reason can be 'possession of a penis'

On the third point my thoughts are generally that yes, currently segregation is generally based on social convention and politeness. I find it vulgar to say but if a 6'5 brick-********* cisman wants to go into a woman's locker room and do whatever he wants then generally nobody is stopping him other than with polite requests and social pressure, short of a shotgun.

But I also believe we have to look at a proper risk analysis and I just don't see that allowing transwomen to use female changing rooms is putting anyone at risk.

 

[cullennz]

That sounds right.

People should generally be allowed to live how they please unless there is good reason to deny it.

Is committing a crime bad enough to be put in prison for the safety of the public good enough?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

UK driving licences don't clearly and explicitly list gender, no. But your gender status IS reported (albeit somewhat covertly) within your driving licence number: from memory, it's to do with the second digit (your licence number always starts with the first five letters of your family name IIRC) - if that second digit is a 0, it denoted man; if it's 1, it denotes woman.

I might be slightly out with my precise description, but it's at least something close to this, and a gender marker definitely does exist.

Fair enough, if that's true. I'm unaware of this. And I imagine your average gym employee is too.