Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Earthborn]

How do you square your views with the rampant and rank misogyny of transwomen and their allies that is so common?

I think you should blame your adversarial political system for that. It seems a lot less common in consensus democracies. Quite possibly this toxicity is amplified by Russian troll farms trying deliberately stoking divisions pretty much everywhere.

 

[theprestige]

... He said, deliberately stoking division.

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't even know how to respond here. I mean, you're presenting females as being analogous to black people... while simultaneously drawing on the negative stereotype of black people being inherently violent?

So... are transwomen and white people the victims of inherent violence from females and black people respectively? Or are females and black people the subjects of disadvantageous negative stereotypes used to uphold the power of males who identify as woman and white folks respectively?

What exactly are you trying to say here, because I'm not really seeing any rational and equitable inference from your analogy.

I thought it was clear. But:

I'm suggesting that advice in past years to trans women not to use women's changing rooms if they still had male bodily traits..... may feasibly have been purely pragmatic advice. In other words, it wasn't that trans women with male bodily traits weren't allowed/entitled to use women's changing rooms if they so wanted - it was that doing so might have fomented unrest or disorder of some sort. And that any such unrest or disorder would not have been in the interests of the trans woman in question (or trans women in general) in any case.

In other words: even though you're entitled, it might be better for you if you choose to stay away - so long as there is the possibility of disorder/unrest, owing to unreconstructed public attitudes.


The fact that you choose to take away from my original post that I'm comparing - in an absolute sense - women with black people, is, well, I'm at a loss myself.

But if it makes things easier: imagine a bullied boy at school, and the head teacher saying to the boy: "I think you ought not to use the boys' bathroom on the ground floor, because there might potententially be trouble for you if you do". It's not that the boy is not entitled to use that bathroom: obviously he absolutely is entitled. Rather, it's that it makes pragmatic sense at that point for the boy not to risk causing unrest (regardless of the fact that any such unrest would be unacceptable and wrong in itself).


Hope that's made things clearer, now that the reflexive "race" flag isn't allowed to fly any longer......

 

[LondonJohn]

I can totally see how females of the human species are totally and completely just like nazis.

I'll try to look out some reading material on the difference between a) a comparison of principles, and b) a comparison of absolutes.

In the meantime though, if it helps any, totally disregard the comparison if you like. The rest of my post stands on its own. My bad for trying to use a comparison to make it easier to understand.

 

[theprestige]

I thought it was clear. But:

I'm suggesting that advice in past years to trans women not to use women's changing rooms if they still had male bodily traits..... may feasibly have been purely pragmatic advice. In other words, it wasn't that trans women with male bodily traits weren't allowed/entitled to use women's changing rooms if they so wanted - it was that doing so might have fomented unrest or disorder of some sort. And that any such unrest or disorder would not have been in the interests of the trans woman in question (or trans women in general) in any case.

In other words: even though you're entitled, it might be better for you if you choose to stay away - so long as there is the possibility of disorder/unrest, owing to unreconstructed public attitudes.


The fact that you choose to take away from my original post that I'm comparing - in an absolute sense - women with black people, is, well, I'm at a loss myself.

But if it makes things easier: imagine a bullied boy at school, and the head teacher saying to the boy: "I think you ought not to use the boys' bathroom on the ground floor, because there might potententially be trouble for you if you do". It's not that the boy is not entitled to use that bathroom: obviously he absolutely is entitled. Rather, it's that it makes pragmatic sense at that point for the boy not to risk causing unrest (regardless of the fact that any such unrest would be unacceptable and wrong in itself).


Hope that's made things clearer, now that the reflexive "race" flag isn't allowed to fly any longer......

Do men in general get to use the women's restroom whenever they want?

 

[LondonJohn]

Do men in general get to use the women's restroom whenever they want?

What?

No.

What on earth led you to take that away from anything I'd written?

 

[Boudicca90]

I can totally see how females of the human species are totally and completely just like nazis.

Once again: You. Don't. Speak. For. All. Women.

Or even a majority of cisgender women, so stop trying to make yourself so.

And it's accurate as you and your allies use the same few examples over and over again to try to discriminate against us. "These few trans women are bad, therefore they all are!"

For those of you on the no-compromise TWAW bus that insists there are no dangers to the rights, privacy, and dignity of females from self-declaration of gender and the presumption that such self-declaration entitles the declarer to put their feelings above the rights of females...


How do you square your views with the rampant and rank misogyny of transwomen and their allies that is so common?

How do you square your views with the abhorrent advocacy for violence and rape against females?

TRA Violent Threats
TERFs aren't Women
TERFs are not Human

Note that these posts are referring to fighting back against transphobes and TERFs, not necessarily "females" like you suggest. Of course most of the most hateful transphobes and TERFs are female, but that's because males seem to be more blasé about transpeople in general. They might hate and dislike us, but they typically don't seem to care enough to do much about it politically.

I also see nothing wrong with these statements. Just like if someone who deals with the effects of racism in society says they want to "Punch a racist.", I totally get it. And personally like the "TERFs are not women." mantra, since we can play the same game.

 

[Meadmaker]

Hope that's made things clearer, now that the reflexive "race" flag isn't allowed to fly any longer......

Not in this sub-topic anyway. I'm pretty sure it'll come up again soon. That's kind of a pity. The topic of transgenders' place in society and the related legal questions really has absolutely nothing to do with race, but I'm pretty sure this won't be the last time it comes up.

ETA: Ninja's by Boudicca90, although not in the usual manner of ninja-ing.

 

[Meadmaker]

And personally like the "TERFs are not women." mantra, since we can play the same game.

Yes. The definition game. Change the meaning of words until they suit your purposes. The cool part is that plenty of people you are talking to won't even care that there isn't actually a definition presented.

 

[TomB]

I'm not familiar with Pink News, though I've heard of it. Because of the discussion on this thread, I did a little looking. I found a couple analyses on bias that used it as an example. (I've surfed passed them and didn't save the links. It's not the point of this post, but my impression is that there is a highly left bias with sometimes misleading headlines and graphics, but the information presented is not falsified.)

I found out something I didn't know about them. Apparently, they are not well regarded in the lesbian community. (Or at least parts of it. While I know a few lesbians, I haven't asked them about their opinion of Pink News.)

I ran accross this article: https://afterellen.com/general-news/567505-male-run-pink-news-at-odds-with-lesbian-community which contains the quote:

Yesterday, PinkNews ran an article on Irish writer/director Graham Linehan. In the article, PinkNews painted Linehan (a vocal ally to the lesbian community) in a distorted light, while quoting Dr Adrian Harrop (someone who lesbians consider extremely anti-lesbian) as though he’s an ally. This added to an already long list of complaints the lesbian community has about PinkNews—So many complaints in fact, lesbians quite often refer to the publication as “Penis News”.

So the "Penis News" label is not unique to Rolfe.

Other interesting things that came up in my surfing:

TERF was initially used as an acronym that meant Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, but the term has always been used to muzzle women from discussing our rights. For the past year and half, TERF has been widely used as homophobic hate speech aimed at all lesbians. That’s right… ALL lesbians.

https://medium.com/@amydyess83/terf-is-hate-speech-and-its-time-to-condemn-it-6efc897ce407

And this one is mostly a collection of social media screenshots calling lesbians TERFs or transphobic for not wanting to date people with penises. I included it, because this has been mentioned before and dismissed as not really happening. I'll quote the warning they put at the top of the page. It's images, so if you want to view the actual content, you'll need to follow the link:

Content warning: The screenshots on this page include many phrases used in conversion therapy (sexual orientation change efforts). There are mentions of rape.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

We wanted to show the pervasive anti-lesbian harassment, coercion and shaming of exclusively same-sex attracted females by people in the (L)GBT community so we collected these screenshots.

Nobody wants to be called transphobic, a vagina fetishist or a terf. These screenshots show hundreds of lesbians described with those words and worse, told to open their minds to sleeping with someone with male genitalia or to try ‘change their preferences’! Lesbian sexual orientation is treated as problematic and even harmful, which stigmatises lesbians. There is an incentive to try change sexual orientation so you no longer face this kind of harassment or anti-lesbian stigma.

Please read the full page and make up your own mind about this:

https://lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

 

[Elaedith]

For those of you on the no-compromise TWAW bus that insists there are no dangers to the rights, privacy, and dignity of females from self-declaration of gender and the presumption that such self-declaration entitles the declarer to put their feelings above the rights of females...


How do you square your views with the rampant and rank misogyny of transwomen and their allies that is so common?

How do you square your views with the abhorrent advocacy for violence and rape against females?

TRA Violent Threats
TERFs aren't Women
TERFs are not Human

There is a good YouTube video produced by 'The State Media': Gender Ideology - Part 2 - Positioning (part of a series). This part outlines some of the origins of the gender ideology movement, and how it expelled various groups previously under the banner of the LGBT, as well as aligning with some MRAs.

 

[LondonJohn]

There is a good YouTube video produced by 'The State Media': Gender Ideology - Part 2 - Positioning (part of a series). This part outlines some of the origins of the gender ideology movement, and how it expelled various groups previously under the banner of the LGBT, as well as aligning with some MRAs.

History suggests that where human rights failings exist, there are often extremist groups who seek to grab hold of the more moderate areas of the debate. In the battle for women's suffrage in the UK in the early C20, for example, the Women's Social and Political Union was an extremist activism body which advocated - and carried out - acts of vandalism, civil disobedience and public disorder. In the battle for black civil rights in South Africa, MK (the armed paramilitary wing of the ANC) carried out acts of terrorism and violent disorder. And even today, in the battle for proper black rights in the USA and elsewhere, Black Lives Matter have an extremist Marxist ideology and advocate extreme measures to achieve their goals.

In all of the above examples, the underlying cause was wholly just; and many would actually argue that the end justified the means. But the fact remains: whenever a group feels a burning sense of injustice in the way it's treated by/within society, it's far from uncommon a) for extremist activist groups to materialise, and b) for those extremist activist groups to try to take control of the debate and the narrative.

I don't therefore find it at all surprising or unusual that something similar might be happening in the transgender rights debate. And I would also say that - just as in the other examples above - it's possible to evaluate the underlying justness of the cause in a manner which is wholly separate from any evaluation of the methods/tactics used by the extreme activist wings.

 

[cullennz]

I'm not familiar with Pink News, though I've heard of it.

I have not looked into it, bu taking a wild stab in the dark, given the name, I am thinking there might be a slight bit of bias one way.

 

[Boudicca90]

History suggests that where human rights failings exist, there are often extremist groups who seek to grab hold of the more moderate areas of the debate. In the battle for women's suffrage in the UK in the early C20, for example, the Women's Social and Political Union was an extremist activism body which advocated - and carried out - acts of vandalism, civil disobedience and public disorder. In the battle for black civil rights in South Africa, MK (the armed paramilitary wing of the ANC) carried out acts of terrorism and violent disorder. And even today, in the battle for proper black rights in the USA and elsewhere, Black Lives Matter have an extremist Marxist ideology and advocate extreme measures to achieve their goals.

In all of the above examples, the underlying cause was wholly just; and many would actually argue that the end justified the means. But the fact remains: whenever a group feels a burning sense of injustice in the way it's treated by/within society, it's far from uncommon a) for extremist activist groups to materialise, and b) for those extremist activist groups to try to take control of the debate and the narrative.

I don't therefore find it at all surprising or unusual that something similar might be happening in the transgender rights debate. And I would also say that - just as in the other examples above - it's possible to evaluate the underlying justness of the cause in a manner which is wholly separate from any evaluation of the methods/tactics used by the extreme activist wings.

Exactly, I don't advocate violence or anything against TERFs, but I understand why other trans people and allies would get that angry at them. It's like when a conservative asked me one time in a post if I would be safe around a BLM activist who said she feels like killing white people sometimes. I said of course, because while I disagree with her, I can sympathize with where that feeling comes from.

And I don't agree that it's transphobic to have preferences of genitals when it comes to sex, because I have my own preferences when it comes to that (vaginas ick), but some people do think that way. But again, having been through the experience of being completely disregarded as a person once they found out I didn't have the genitals they were expecting, I can understand the feelings they are going through.

 

[caveman1917]

Note that these posts are referring to fighting back against transphobes and TERFs

IIRC you've called Emily's Cat both a transphobe and a TERF before, so are you saying that those posts are referring to "fighting back" against her?

 

[caveman1917]

I also see nothing wrong with these statements. Just like if someone who deals with the effects of racism in society says they want to "Punch a racist.", I totally get it.

Just like people dealing with the effects of racism in society, you say? Well, let's see: "I want to rape a racist to death then chop its body into pieces and leave them for the crows." Yeah, you hear that all the time from anti-racist activists... If you seriously can see nothing wrong with these statements then...destructive cult it is, I guess.

 

[Boudicca90]

IIRC you've called Emily's Cat both a transphobe and a TERF before, so are you saying that those posts are referring to "fighting back" against her?

Her, you, and the others here who have made it clear that you don't consider us to be the men and women we say we are and restrict our rights and privileges because of it.

And not all transphobes are TERFs, there are plenty of people who hate and discriminate against us that don't consider themselves feminists at all. All TERFs are transphobes however (The hint is in the acronym.)

 

[caveman1917]

Her, you, and the others here who have made it clear that you don't consider us to be the men and women we say we are and restrict our rights and privileges because of it.

And not all transphobes are TERFs, there are plenty of people who hate and discriminate against us that don't consider themselves feminists at all. All TERFs are transphobes however (The hint is in the acronym.)

I see. So, just to be clear here, you see no problem with the following statement as long as X refers to anyone[*] who does not consider the proposition "transwomen are women" to be true? "I want to rape X to death then chop its body into pieces and leave them for the crows."

* ETA: which would, presumably, include anyone not idiotic enough to not know how to evaluate propositions of the form "all x are y" - which is, by my estimate, still quite a lot of people. Maybe a mass rape event should be organized?

 

[Boudicca90]

I see. So, just to be clear here, you see no problem with the following statement as long as X refers to anyone[*] who does not consider the proposition "transwomen are women" to be true? "I want to rape X to death then chop its body into pieces and leave them for the crows."

* ETA: which would, presumably, include anyone not idiotic enough to not know how to evaluate propositions of the form "all x are y" - which is, by my estimate, still quite a lot of people. Maybe a mass rape event should be organized?

No, that's definitely way too extreme no matter who it's aimed at. But that is just one cherry-picked example from the others also shown.

So yes, it's absolutely disgusting. I don't know what else you want me to say.

 

[abaddon]

Which specific policies follow from this stirring emotional appeal?

Reality.