Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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The most charitable interpretation to you and to them is that you may have misunderstood what they were saying.

Requiring surgery for restroom access makes no sense to me. Surgery is only provided to those whose trans gender identity has been shown to be clear and persistent by someone living as the other gender for a few years or so. Obviously to achieve that people need to be able to live as the other gender and not be blocked from doing so.
 
Earthborn said:
The most charitable interpretation to you and to them is that you may have misunderstood what they were saying.

Requiring surgery for restroom access makes no sense to me. Surgery is only provided to those whose trans gender identity has been shown to be clear and persistent by someone living as the other gender for a few years or so. Obviously to achieve that people need to be able to live as the other gender and not be blocked from doing so.
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Why is the eligibility for surgery so stringent?

Restructuring our laws and social norms to accommodate the gatekeeping for what amounts to cosmetic surgery seems like a wild and irresponsible overreaction. Especially when this restructuring mostly involves women's rights.
 
I really do not think I have any comprehension problems when someone is telling me factual stuff in clear English.
 
Rolfe said:
I don't like them because they lie. And because they're pretty much a men's rights publication, with gay men and transwomen their only concern.
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Are you suggesting that the mediabiasfactcheck.com service is itself lying, when it rates Pink News' factual reporting to be generally of high factual truth?


If so, then firstly that would seem to be one heck of a meta mind-****; but secondly, I'd suggest that some supporting evidence for your claim might be in order.
 
Elaedith said:
It's not clear whether or not the original claim was that the alleged crimes were recorded as being committed by a transgender inmate. I believe that if transwoman have legally changed gender any offences in prison will be recorded as offences committed by a female (not sure if this is the case in Scotland, I'm guessing Rolfe will know). The opening statement in the article does say self-identifying, but there are other issues in relation to those self-identifying within the body of the article, so it could just be careless wording.

I know that there were issues raised with crimes being recorded based on self-identified gender but I don't know if this applies to offences within prisons.
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The other aspect to this is that - in England & Wales at any rate - the presence & operation of female members of staff in male prisons is a common occurrence. And this ranges from admin staff, through educators/psychologists, through to front-line prison officers (though all of those categories are likely to come into contact with male prisoners on a fairly regular basis, sometimes on a 1-to-1 basis).

So irrespective of what may or may not have occurred between a trans woman inmate and a female officer in a women's prison, its relevance drops when one considers that female prison staff come into regular contact with male prisoners in men's prisoners anyhow. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if female staff members in women's prisons who preferred not to be in 1-to-1 contact with trans women prisoners would have their wishes respected (and prison officers have unions which tend to look after their members' interests rather well...).


On top of all that, of course, this was (or was not) just one incident. Then again, it only took one Jew (allegedly) murdering a German diplomat in Paris to give the Nazis "justification" for the frenzy of violence against Jewish people, businesses and places of worship that broadly became known as "Kristallnacht" - so I guess the whipping up of populist hysteria on the basis of one isolated (alleged) occurrence is nothing new......
 
theprestige said:
Oh good. An analogy to Nazism. That will convince everyone. /s
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I don't care who it does or doesn't convince. It's correct.

But I'm not at all disappointed to see where it elicited umbrage and consternation :D


ETA: I'm just wondering why you aren't quote-responding to my posts? You seem to have been quote-responding to posts from others (in what might be deemed usual practice), and it can make things slightly confusing in a reasonably fast-moving thread - and it was these two factors which sparked my interest. But do please let me know, of course, if - in the absence of a quoted post above your response - I'm wrong to believe that this and your other recent post were directed at things which I'd written. Thanks!
 
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Earthborn said:
The most charitable interpretation to you and to them is that you may have misunderstood what they were saying.

Requiring surgery for restroom access makes no sense to me. Surgery is only provided to those whose trans gender identity has been shown to be clear and persistent by someone living as the other gender for a few years or so. Obviously to achieve that people need to be able to live as the other gender and not be blocked from doing so.
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There's also the very real (IMO) possibility that trans women at that time, in that situation, were being advised not to use (eg) women's communal changing rooms not on any point of principle or right - but because it was deemed that (with public attitudes as they were, moreso several or more years ago) an unwelcome "scene" might have been caused which wouldn't have been of any help or benefit to the trans woman - or trans women in general - either.


(On a slightly similar but unrelated topic, I'd imagine, for example, that police might advise white people against going into all-black neighbourhood pubs and bars late at night (and perhaps vice versa) - not because it's in any way officially non-permissible for white people to do those things, but because it's a pragmatic way of trying to avert unrest or disorder.)
 
Boudicca90 said:
Except PinkNews doesn't have a credibility problem, you just don't like them because they are openly pro-LGBTQ+, much like how conservatives dismiss New York Times because they have a liberal slant.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pink-news/

Edit: And here is the Daily Fail for comparison: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/

Doesn't look good for your judgement.
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I'm sure you've been told this here before: will you STOP countering unsubstantiated "factual" claims with anything even resembling objective documentary evidence?

(On top of anything else, it's just so damned unfair :D :D)
 
Earthborn said:
The most charitable interpretation to you and to them is that you may have misunderstood what they were saying.
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The most charitable interpretation is that your analysis has been falsified by Rolfe's lived experience.

All you did was pick the most charitable interpretation that still allowed for you being right and Rolfe being wrong. That's not really charitable at all.
 
Getting back to the original point, I posted a link and referred to "things like this". A number of outrages were referred to, but only one appears to have been questioned. Frankly anyone who thinks it's OK if imprisoned women are raped so long as the prison warders aren't can do one.

Also, while Rory the Tory is a bit dim, Richard Keen has a brain the size of a planet which he uses to great effect as an advocate to run rhetorical and procedural rings round the opposition. Having studied his performance at Camp Zeist in great detail, I'd be counting my fingers if I ever shook hands with that one. He can prove that black is white and you're the one who gets killed on the next zebra crossing. So who knows.
 
theprestige said:
The most charitable interpretation is that your analysis has been falsified by Rolfe's lived experience.

All you did was pick the most charitable interpretation that still allowed for you being right and Rolfe being wrong. That's not really charitable at all.
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I'm tempted to give these guys Lesley's twitter handle and let her sort them out.
 
caveman1917 said:
Unless you have better evidence of incidents of inmate-on-staff assaults than "Rory the Tory said so" this is grasping at straws. It doesn't even make much sense for him to lie about it, he's admitting inmate-on-inmate assaults so why lie about inmate-on-staff assaults?

And if you're going all the way off into speculation on some scheme for planet-brained Keen to be lying about this for political advocacy, then how do you know the scheme didn't consist of planet-brained Keen himself (indirectly) giving the rumor to dimwit Rory just so he could humiliate him afterwards in parliament?

It really just seems to happen to be the case that there were no such instances of inmate-on-staff rape.
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I genuinely don't know. I don't trust Keen as far as I can throw him, an assessment that goes back at least ten years. There were a number of outrages detailed in the article I linked to, of which, as I said, that was just one. If it's all hunky-dory so long as it's only imprisoned women who are raped, well no, it's not.
 
Rolfe said:
I genuinely don't know. I don't trust Keen as far as I can throw him, an assessment that goes back at least ten years. There were a number of outrages detailed in the article I linked to, of which, as I said, that was just one. If it's all hunky-dory so long as it's only imprisoned women who are raped, well no, it's not.
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The conclusion doesn't (exclusively) rely on the trustworthiness of Keen though. Assuming that inmate-on-staff sexual assaults are much more rare than inmate-on-inmate assaults, which seems a reasonable assumption, there just aren't enough transwomen in the female prison to have likely sexually assaulted a female staff member yet. But yeah, that's kind of my point, it would seem to be better to argue the case based on those other claims, which are better supported, than this inmate-on-staff claim which is probably false anyway.
 
LondonJohn said:
There's also the very real (IMO) possibility that trans women at that time, in that situation, were being advised not to use (eg) women's communal changing rooms not on any point of principle or right - but because it was deemed that (with public attitudes as they were, moreso several or more years ago) an unwelcome "scene" might have been caused which wouldn't have been of any help or benefit to the trans woman - or trans women in general - either.


(On a slightly similar but unrelated topic, I'd imagine, for example, that police might advise white people against going into all-black neighbourhood pubs and bars late at night (and perhaps vice versa) - not because it's in any way officially non-permissible for white people to do those things, but because it's a pragmatic way of trying to avert unrest or disorder.)
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I don't even know how to respond here. I mean, you're presenting females as being analogous to black people... while simultaneously drawing on the negative stereotype of black people being inherently violent?

So... are transwomen and white people the victims of inherent violence from females and black people respectively? Or are females and black people the subjects of disadvantageous negative stereotypes used to uphold the power of males who identify as woman and white folks respectively?

What exactly are you trying to say here, because I'm not really seeing any rational and equitable inference from your analogy.
 
For those of you on the no-compromise TWAW bus that insists there are no dangers to the rights, privacy, and dignity of females from self-declaration of gender and the presumption that such self-declaration entitles the declarer to put their feelings above the rights of females...


How do you square your views with the rampant and rank misogyny of transwomen and their allies that is so common?

How do you square your views with the abhorrent advocacy for violence and rape against females?

TRA Violent Threats
TERFs aren't Women
TERFs are not Human
 
Rolfe said:
Getting back to the original point, I posted a link and referred to "things like this". A number of outrages were referred to, but only one appears to have been questioned.
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That number being 2. The second being the White thing which has been done to death.

The first being a Tory lying.
 
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