Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Rolfe]

Females are supportive of transsexual women in their spaces - people who have fully transitioned including surgical transition. Females are, in general, not supportive of people with penises being in their spaces.

I used to hold no objection to surgically-transitioned transwomen in the less intimate spaces such as public loos. I've changed my mind, for two reasons. One is that I have realised that there are some surgically-transitioned transwomen who have transitioned for fetishistic reasons, but this is not the main objection.

It's the camel's nose again. It's impossible to screen transwomen and say, you're good to go but you can't come in. The latter group throw a strop and scream about transphobia. We've all seen Boudicca insisting that surgical transition shouldn't be a prerequisite because reasons, and that's par for the course. Also, guys, we can't tell who has had genital surgery and who hasn't, just by looking at them. You're back at the genital inspection requirement. If even a small group of people who are physically, phenotypically male is allowed in, this removes women's ability to challenge anyone who is phenotypically male. This is a problem. In practice, it means that any man at all can enter unchallenged.

 

[abaddon]

I used to hold no objection to surgically-transitioned transwomen in the less intimate spaces such as public loos. I've changed my mind, for two reasons. One is that I have realised that there are some surgically-transitioned transwomen who have transitioned for fetishistic reasons, but this is not the main objection.

It's the camel's nose again. It's impossible to screen transwomen and say, you're good to go but you can't come in. The latter group throw a strop and scream about transphobia. We've all seen Boudicca insisting that surgical transition shouldn't be a prerequisite because reasons, and that's par for the course. Also, guys, we can't tell who has had genital surgery and who hasn't, just by looking at them. You're back at the genital inspection requirement. If even a small group of people who are physically, phenotypically male is allowed in, this removes women's ability to challenge anyone who is phenotypically male. This is a problem. In practice, it means that any man at all can enter unchallenged.

OK, you seem to be devoid of any understanding that surgical transition takes YEARS.

Not my problem. If you don't know, then you don't know.

 

[Meadmaker]

So far in these threads I've seen exactly one survey which explictly asked about bepenised individuals using the women's changing room as the result of their sense of gender identity. It did not yield the results you are hoping to see.

[IMGw=720]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200925/c16089d02ad1d3dcd0d7642988f3db73.jpg[/IMGw]

That's the kind of results I would expect.

I would not expect a majority support for non-transitioned males in female locker rooms, and that's where I base my position on.


It has only been relatively recently that I really thought of this as a sexist issue, but I have been persuaded that it is. When most women say they want something, and people respond by saying your opinion doesn't matter, that's kind of sexist. The writings of people in these threads have been very influential in that regard.

Even before then I said that if a teenage girl objected, I would take her side, but I didn't really see it as sexist.

 

[abaddon]

That's the kind of results I would expect.

I would not expect a majority support for non-transitioned males in female locker rooms, and that's where I base my position on.


It has only been relatively recently that I really thought of this as a sexist issue, but I have been persuaded that it is. When most women say they want something, and people respond by saying your opinion doesn't matter, that's kind of sexist. The writings of people in these threads have been very influential in that regard.

Even before then I said that if a teenage girl objected, I would take her side, but I didn't really see it as sexist.

Tell me that again when you have had to deal with a 14 year old who has been chucked out of house and home because they are trans.

Tell me that again when you have had to institute a direct intervention for a trans muslim stick in a refugee camp surrounded by devout muslims. Fearing death.

Have you no idea how awful that is for them?

Why do people that have not put boots on the frontline not see the evil they are doing?

 

[d4m10n]

Why do people that have not put boots on the frontline not see the evil they are doing?

Which specific policies follow from this stirring emotional appeal?

 

[LondonJohn]

Not necessarily. I think there's an art to it. I mean, LondonJohn hasn't been labeled as anti-trans because he repeats the mantra "transwomen are women". Even though his actual policy views are not materially different than mine. Perhaps I should just kowtow and say "transwomen are women" and accept that it's a completely meaningless phrase intended to stroke the egos of emotionally vulnerable people... and then state exactly my same views again.

Or, you know, it might also have to do with the fact that I'm female. Because I notice that Boudicca hasn't called you, or Damion, or Meadmaker, or Roboramma transphobes or TERFs or hysterical, despite several of the male posters having views more restrictive than my own.

I wonder why that is?

???
I believe my policy views are quite a bit different from yours.

In general terms, I believe that - regarding policy - trans women should be treated as women, in exactly the same way as cis women are treated. There are two main caveats to my position though: 1) I don't believe that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sport at any sort of significant competitive level (eg international, national or regional events); 2) there will be matter - gender-segregated communal changing rooms in gyms etc being one - where (IMO) a certain amount of negotiation and latitude will have to be undertaken by all stakeholder, in order to achieve a solution which repects all stakeholders' rights & safety as much as is reasonably positive.


Whereas it appears to me that you do not - as a fundamental bedrock of your belief system on this subject - believe that trans women should be treated in exactly the same way as cis women in policy terms; you don't for example believe that any trans women should be allowed to access communal women's changing rooms in gyms etc. Your position appears to me to be along the lines of: "I am perfectly fine with transgender people identifying as their trans gender, but I certainly dont want trans women to be considered women in policy terms - especially with respect to women-only spaces".


Obviously if I've misinterpreted your beliefs (and I've only interpreted them on the basis of what you've written within this thread), I'd be very happy to be corrected.

 

[Rolfe]

OK, you seem to be devoid of any understanding that surgical transition takes YEARS.

Not my problem. If you don't know, then you don't know.

Of course it does. And in the past (certainly in this country) men who were transitioning with the aid of full psychological and psychiatric support were given to understand that they did not enter any women's single-sex space until their genital surgery was complete. They were given letters to show if necessary, if there was any unpleasantness, that they had transitioned, but these letters could be revoked if their behaviour was deemed to warrant it. They were counselled to be aware of women's reactions to their presence and to leave as soon as they could if they caught a hint that their presence was making a woman uncomfortable.

This was the deal under which women were prepared to accept transwomen in their spaces. Only after completion of genital surgery, and on the understanding that behaviour which upset women was not acceptable.

You want the transwomen's desires to be given priority over the comfort of those whose spaces they are demanding access to. You're demanding that women put up with be-penised men in their spaces, because "surgery takes ages". So what? A more perfect example of the camel's nose problem would be hard to devise. Transwomen are not the centre of the universe and should not expect everyone else to accommodate their convenience. If conceding that post-surgical transwomen may be accommodated only gets us the petulant demand to let penises in because "surgical transtition takes YEARS", then they can all stay out as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Rolfe]

Tell me that again when you have had to deal with a 14 year old who has been chucked out of house and home because they are trans.

Tell me that again when you have had to institute a direct intervention for a trans muslim stick in a refugee camp surrounded by devout muslims. Fearing death.

Have you no idea how awful that is for them?

Why do people that have not put boots on the frontline not see the evil they are doing?

The fact that some people have been treated very badly because they are trans is not a reason to demand that women give up all ability to gatekeep their private spaces against the sort of narcissistic fetishists that we see, time and time again, demanding that the world rearrange itself for their pleasure.

 

[theprestige]

OK, you seem to be devoid of any understanding that surgical transition takes YEARS.

Not my problem. If you don't know, then you don't know.

Resolved: A surgical transition takes years.

Therefore, when crafting public policy and social norms to accommodate the needs and rights of trans people... what do you propose?

That surgical transition be discarded as a way to determine if someone is entitled to use a certain gender's safe spaces? Okay, sure. I can see how that would be humane.

What else do you propose? What indicators should be used instead, to determine right to access?

Or do you propose that no indicators at all be used? Pure self-ID. "I say I'm entitled to access, therefore I should be entitled by law and custom." Is that where you land?

 

[LondonJohn]

I would phrase it slightly differently, but still directed at Archie.

Why is it so important for a person to change clothes in the presence of people who match their gender identity? The cis-people want to avoid changing in the presence of the opposite sex. The trans people find it important to change in the presence of people who match their gender identity, but who do not match their biological sex. Why should we place one desire above the other?

(I would change the wording because I don't think that AGG recognizes a "right to privacy", so I don't think he would recognize a "violation of privacy" either.)

But this then immediately raises the question (which has been outlined here by me already):

If - in (say) a sports facility where there are fundamentally three different changing rooms: men's, women's and disabled - trans women (eg) are not permitted to use the women's changing rooms....

....which changing rooms should they use?


Because there are only two other options (discounting - as I hope all people would - the options of changing in a back room somewhere, or not being permitted to use the sports facility at all):

1) Trans women use the men's changing rooms;

2) Trans women use the disabled changing rooms.


Going to (2) first: well for a start, trans women are not disabled. Separate disabled changing rooms exist primarily because certain disabilities require changing, showering and toilet facilites which are not present in regular changing rooms. But trans women don't need special facilities in this way. And requiring a trans woman to use the disabled changing room is a) a tacit way of saying that transgender identity is a disability, and b) putting transgender people into a changing room which has no link whatsoever to their condition/identity.

So onto (1). The first thing is, one can make more-or-less the same argument as for trans women in women's changing rooms: men/boys feeling uncomfortable changing and getting naked in the presence of people identifying as women - and transgender people who have sometimes also had medical and/or surgical treatment to change their appearance and body functions to more closely resemble those of biological females. Yes, it's a reasonable argument that trans women in women's changing rooms would probably present greater potential risk to other women within those changing rooms, compared with the potential risk to men from sharing their changing rooms with trans women. But that (IMO) is the only real point of difference - and in any case we're still a long way from having anything like reliable data pertaining to just how much risk to cis women might result from allowing trans women to use women's changing rooms...


So: where should trans women change, whenever they choose to visit the gym/pool/sports facility etc?

 

[LondonJohn]

Thanks for a bit of a smile, both of you!

And I'm sure that Boudicca90 found that exchange to be highly amusing as well....

 

[Rolfe]

It's interesting to note how far up transpeople's arses some posters are prepared to place their noses.

 

[theprestige]

Tell me that again when you have had to deal with a 14 year old who has been chucked out of house and home because they are trans.

Tell me that again when you have had to institute a direct intervention for a trans muslim stick in a refugee camp surrounded by devout muslims. Fearing death.

Have you no idea how awful that is for them?

Why do people that have not put boots on the frontline not see the evil they are doing?

An appeal to emotion, with no rational connection to anything we've been discussing in this thread.

 

[Rolfe]

I'll see if I can find the reference. To be clear, this was in a Stonewall document which gave details of the measures they were promoting in relation to the proposed new legislation which has now been shelved. I couldn't believe my eyes either. I doubt if it would have been seriously considered by legislators, but on the other hand a lot of things are happening that I wouldn't have believed five years ago. (If you think that's extreme, you probably won't believe the manifesto of the Edinburgh Action for Trans Health group, which goes a great deal further and seems utterly deranged, nevertheless this is a group policy-makers sit down with and listen to.)

Stonewall has more recently back-tracked and denied that it ever advocated removal of the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act, but several eagle-eyed women's rights campaigners saved the document so I should be able to find it.

I didn't get that quite right. Stonewall was indeed lobbying to have the single-sex exemptions removed from the Equality Act, however they do not seem to have been demanding that transwomen should have the right to request that their intimate services be delivered by transwomen. That was apparently the Scottish Trans Alliance. But it was demanded.

Evidence of calls to remove single-sex exemptions from the Equality Act

remove the genuine occupational requirement (GOR) allowing some jobs to require applicants must be cisgender and replace it with a GOR allowing posts delivering trans-specific services to require applicants must be transgender.

This is all about enshrining in law the right of every man who says the magic words to have unfettered, undisputed, unchallengeable access to all female-specific services. Women are to be left with absolutely no single-sex spaces at all, because hurt feelings, you know. The added bonus of transpeople being able to demand trans-exclusive services is in there too though.

 

[theprestige]

And I'm sure that Boudicca90 found that exchange to be highly amusing as well....

: rolleyes :

Reminds me of an old joke:

Q. How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

If you can't laugh at yourself even a little bit... Anyway, Boudicca has made it abundantly clear that she doesn't care how other people think and feel about this, if they don't agree with her. Even the perspective of females is inconsequential to her. So I don't think it's fair to chide me for not worrying about that.

I wonder how she'd feel about you white-knighting her, though. It's kind of a stereotypical way for women to be treated by men in our society. Would she welcome it as an affirmation of her gender identity? Or would she resent it as an infantilization of her because of her gender identity?

 

[Rolfe]

I just find it amusing that he's white-knighting Boudicca (I suppose that's politer than brown-nosing, which is how it comes across to me) while crapping on actual women from a great height.

 

[cullennz]

We have established that a lot of women aren't comfortable with people with penises using spaces designated as female spaces.

Archie

Do you mind telling me the reason trans women can't use the dude spaces built for other people with penises.

Is it because they feel the same?

 

[Boudicca90]

They don't! And you've been shown this repeatedly. Females are supportive of transsexual women in their spaces - people who have fully transitioned including surgical transition. Females are, in general, not supportive of people with penises being in their spaces.

Yep, so you would not be supportive of me being around you. Despite having used women's restrooms, locker rooms, and spas exclusively for a few years now (because I am a woman), you think I should be banned because I still have a penis? Even though I guarantee you would not be able to tell I was once male. I was not very masculine to begin with, so hormones have been pretty effective for me.

And I have no intention right now of getting my penis removed, I don't have a lot of dysphoria about my genitals and would consider it more for practical reasons.

I used to hold no objection to surgically-transitioned transwomen in the less intimate spaces such as public loos. I've changed my mind, for two reasons. One is that I have realised that there are some surgically-transitioned transwomen who have transitioned for fetishistic reasons, but this is not the main objection.

It's the camel's nose again. It's impossible to screen transwomen and say, you're good to go but you can't come in. The latter group throw a strop and scream about transphobia. We've all seen Boudicca insisting that surgical transition shouldn't be a prerequisite because reasons, and that's par for the course. Also, guys, we can't tell who has had genital surgery and who hasn't, just by looking at them. You're back at the genital inspection requirement. If even a small group of people who are physically, phenotypically male is allowed in, this removes women's ability to challenge anyone who is phenotypically male. This is a problem. In practice, it means that any man at all can enter unchallenged.

Nope, surgery or hormones aren't necessary to transition and shouldn't be. We all have our own transition goals and that's why I support Self ID, because transitioning isn't always the same for everybody and people shouldn't have to medically or surgically transition if they don't want to. Like me retaining my penis doesn't make me any less of a woman. A woman can have a penis and a man can have a vagina.

 

[d4m10n]

So: where should trans women change, whenever they choose to visit the gym/pool/sports facility etc?

If I woke up tomorrow in a feminized body with well-developed breasts and an intact penis, I'd change in the same private lockable room which I usually do now. Wouldn't change my (gym) life a bit.

 

[Emily's Cat]

..you probably won't believe the manifesto of the Edinburgh Action for Trans Health group...

Frankly, that's nutters.