No I still don't. Even if I accept your position that transwomen are men then I still don't know why you think it's so bleeding obvious that self-conscious women have a right to privacy from that particular group but not from other groups.
I have a horrible feeling you are going to say 'because men are a threat to women' as if somehow that has ANYTHING to do with the right to privacy that you are talking about here, but I won't put words in your mouth.
You have a right to reasonable privacy, you do not have a right to dictate who can be near you in a public space because you don't feel comfortable around them.
If you want to help me understand then I would really like to know why you believe a high-school girl has a right not to be looked at by a transwoman but no right not to be looked at by a lesbian, for example.
Preferably without bringing up things that are nothing to do with privacy.
All right, I'll take these questions at face value. So, you started with "even if I accept your position that transwomen are men"....That's important, so let's make sure we're on the same page. For the sake of argument, we will assume that transwomen are men.
For those following along, that doesn't mean that we are agreeing that transwomen are men, we are accepting it "for the sake of argument". That means we are looking at the implications of that statement. If that statement is true, what follows from that statement. We aren't agreeing it's true.
So, why do women have a right of privacy from "this particular group". I'm not sure if you meant that the group is transwomen, or the group is men. We'll do it both ways, just to be sure. I'll start by assuming that "this particular group" is men.
You go on:
I have a horrible feeling you are going to say 'because men are a threat to women' as if somehow that has ANYTHING to do with the right to privacy that you are talking about here, but I won't put words in your mouth.
You have a right to reasonable privacy, you do not have a right to dictate who can be near you in a public space because you don't feel comfortable around them.
There are two basic lines of argument. One is the one that gives you a horrible feeling. Women feel uncomfortable around men, and I do believe that it is related to women feeling threatened by men, whether that gives you a horrible feeling or not.
The other line of argument is just to simply note that there is no demand, and I do not even hear such a demand from you, that we end man/woman segregation of places where we are disrobed. The number of people who want to end it is very small. Perhaps it's not important, but almost all of those who want to end it are men. Trying to explain why that is would probably give you a horrible feeling, though.
So, what it comes down to, for me, is that women have a right to privacy with respect to "the particular group" of men because society has decided that they have that right. That's the status quo, and if you want to argue against maintaining that right of privacy with respect to men viewing women when the women are naked, be my guest. I haven't heard you make such an argument yet, but by all means proceed.
Personally, I wouldn't mind ending that segregation. In my youth, I certainly enjoyed "clothing optional" settings, and I would still enjoy them today, but I think the nature of my enjoyment actually holds the key to why so many people, especially women, would like to maintain separate spaces where there are no men present.
Summary: We honor the right of privacy of women with respect to men, because both men and women seem to want it that way. We think this is related to the fact that women feel threatened by men, but I won't try to prove that right now.
So, what if, instead, "this particular group" was transwomen?
The first and most obvious observation is that there is literally no one who thinks that there ought to be a right of privacy that is specific to transwomen. There are lots of people, like me, who think that transwomen are a subset of a class that ought to be excluded from women's private spaces, but no one who thinks that transwomen, specifically, should be excluded as a result of some characteristic that is unique to transwomen.
In other words, we think that women ought to have a right of privacy with respect to men, and we think transwomen are men.
And that's it, really. We don't think that there ought to be an exception made for one specific set of men. You think they aren't men, so you don't see it as an exception.
If you want to help me understand then I would really like to know why you believe a high-school girl has a right not to be looked at by a transwoman but no right not to be looked at by a lesbian, for example.
There's no simple answer, because your question seems to be based on some assumptions. One simple answer is practicality. How would you do it? How would you identify the lesbians? How would you accommodate two lesbians? It gets complicated.
More importantly, it's not really necessary. Let's unpack the assumption.
It seems to me that the assumption is that people feel uncomfortable undressing in the presence of someone who might be sexually attracted to them. That's correct. There is some discomfort there, isn't there?
However, when men are attracted to women, there's generally a sexual response to the visual stimulus of a naked woman. That's considerably less true for homosexual attraction. On the other hand, it's not completely absent, either. What I'm saying is that your assumption isn't ridiculous. The presence of gay people in a shared locker room is going to cause a little bit of discomfort. (I think that's why people younger than me are always covering themselves up in locker rooms. When I got into the habit of throwing my towel over my shoulder, it was in a world where we had heard of homosexuals, but certainly didn't think there were any in our locker room. The younger generation was more aware that yes, there were gay people, and suddenly felt compelled to wear a towel around their waist.)
So, got a solution to that? I don't. Eventually, we weigh the specific situation, and we decide that, realistically, there's no threat associated with being near a gay person of your own sex. Your discomfort is largely in your head, and there's nothing we can do about it, so deal with it.
You might think the same thing is true for a transwoman in a women's locker room, and I cannot say you are completely wrong.
And so, we're back at exactly the core problem. i say transwomen are men. I say it's reasonable for women to want privacy with respect to men. Lesbians aren't men, so it doesn't apply. Black women aren't men, so it doesn't apply.
Why should men be special? Biology. Pregnancy. Rape. Reproduction. We had all of those things before we had society. Society shapes them but doesn't invent them. (It occurs to me that eroticism isn't on the list, and it doesn't belong there.) However, if the majority of women say they don't mind the presence of transwomen, then things will change. For me, I decided some years back that I would support what women wanted. If that becomes trans-inclusion, then I'll eliminate my objections. Right now, I don't think that's what they want.
part).
