Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Meadmaker said:
The question wasn't directed specifically at me, but I'll give my answer.

Transwomen should use the disabilities room, or the men's room.

Exact answer might vary depending on the exact nature of the facility, and even such things as the demographics of the users. Certainly on a forum like this I'm not going to try to spell out in fine detail exactly the policy, but the general principle that would guide me is that the privacy rights of the women using the locker room is more important than affirming the gender identity of the trans woman, so use of the disabilities room guarantees privacy, safety, and access for all, and those are more significant than the desire of the trans woman to be affirmed as a woman.

Since she is a biological male, she also has the right to use the men's room. That's her choice.
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What I still don't understand is why you feel the privacy rights of women who want privacy trump the rights of transwomen but not any other class of woman.

I won't put words in your mouth but I assume if a woman said she didn't want to get naked in front of a black woman, a fat woman, an old woman, a disabled woman or a lesbian you wouldn't say that their right trumps the right of those other groups?
 
Meadmaker said:
I understand, but you have also explained a solution, but it's not a solution to a real problem. You opined that if the transwoman abided by a social contract that involved keeping her penis covered, then that would be a step in the right direction.

But it isn't. Keeping her penis covered is something that darned near no one cares about. It's practically irrelevant.

The issue is not what part of the transwoman's anatomy might be seen. The big issue is that the transwoman might see something. Keeping her penis covered doesn't solve that problem, hence the question, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

(Just in case you haven't heard the anecdote before, it's a question that was asked at a school board meeting by a high school senior who objected to the presence of a transgirl in her locker room. The school board member promised that the transgirl would always wear a towel to keep her penis covered.)

ETA: And, I know that you disagree. I know you think the transgirl's right to be there is more important than the other girl's desire to maintain a sense of privacy around males. I get that. But if you're going to understand the issue, understand the real issue. Your solution addresses a problem that isn't the problem.
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Yes, the real issue of bigoted high school girls who don't understand or empathise with transgender issues or people is a real one but I don't think we can solve it here. Or is that not what you meant either?

Presumably this girl has no issues with lesbians perving on her?
 
Boudicca90 said:
Yep, that is correct. Emily seems to think she speaks for all or most women, or at least all cisgender women, and so she mistakenly attributed my analysis of her to all or most women.

I was talking about her and others with her views. When the fact is her views are still a minority and are only becoming more noticed because they are getting louder and have new celebrity endorsements like JK Rowling.

We are not a threat, but if someone keeps treating us like we are, why should I care if we do threaten them? I get to the point where I realize I'm not getting through to anybody so what is the point of trying to be empathic to someone who shows no empathy for us. Hell, even the way she talks about and treats her niece shows even having trans family won't soften her views any.
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EC's position seems even more confused than that as she seems to believe that transwomen are a) males b) suffering from a mental health condition. But that men should have no say on the matter because the only thing that matters is 'women's views' (where this actually means the views of the minority of women who have an issue with transrights)

So basically transwomen don't get a say because they are 'men' in her worldview. It's certainly convenient.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Yes, the real issue of bigoted high school girls who don't understand or empathise with transgender issues or people is a real one but I don't think we can solve it here. Or is that not what you meant either?

Presumably this girl has no issues with lesbians perving on her?
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You are huge on judgement aren’t you. Have you had female daughters? Do you have any idea how young females might feel in the confronting situation imposed on them?

Collateral damage no doubt. Understandable casualties in the pursuit of the “right” of people with penises to proudly “express” themselves.
 
d4m10n said:
Where on earth did you get the idea that this is all about where we fall on a scale from Barbie to G.I. Joe? ;)

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New UK government guidance published yesterday.

"You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. "

Does this mean an end to Mermaids' indoctrination training/education sessions, at least in schools?
 
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Maybe it's prepositions we should be clarifying, rather than pronouns. (I'm not quite sure about the teenage part, that might just have been my impression, but tween or teen girl.)
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
What I still don't understand is why you feel the privacy rights of women who want privacy trump the rights of transwomen but not any other class of woman.

I won't put words in your mouth but I assume if a woman said she didn't want to get naked in front of a black woman, a fat woman, an old woman, a disabled woman or a lesbian you wouldn't say that their right trumps the right of those other groups?
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You are correct.


And it is quite simple to understand, to the point that if you genuinely don't understand it you are just being deliberately obtuse. The explanation is right there in the thread title.


And you know that.

You don't have to agree with the title of the thread, but you know that is my position, and you know that explains your question, so can we stop the pretense? Can we be honest? I've heard you say you like that sort of thing, so let's be honest. My position is that transwomen are men. You know that's my position. That explains all of that reasoning related to the analogy as well. So, how about it? You understand my position just fine, even if you don't agree with it. Can we stop pretending you don't?
 
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Meadmaker said:
You are correct.

And it is quite simple to understand, to the point that if you genuinely don't understand it you are just being deliberately obtuse. The explanation is right there in the thread title.

And you know that.

You don't have to agree with the title of the thread, but you know that is my position, and you know that explains your question, so can we stop the pretense? Can we be honest? I've heard you say you like that sort of thing, so let's be honest. My position is that transwomen are men. You know that's my position. That explains all of that reasoning related to the analogy as well. So, how about it? You understand my position just fine, even if you don't agree with it. Can we stop pretending you don't?
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No I still don't. Even if I accept your position that transwomen are men then I still don't know why you think it's so bleeding obvious that self-conscious women have a right to privacy from that particular group but not from other groups.

I have a horrible feeling you are going to say 'because men are a threat to women' as if somehow that has ANYTHING to do with the right to privacy that you are talking about here, but I won't put words in your mouth.

You have a right to reasonable privacy, you do not have a right to dictate who can be near you in a public space because you don't feel comfortable around them.

If you want to help me understand then I would really like to know why you believe a high-school girl has a right not to be looked at by a transwoman but no right not to be looked at by a lesbian, for example.

Preferably without bringing up things that are nothing to do with privacy.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
No I still don't. Even if I accept your position that transwomen are men then I still don't know why you think it's so bleeding obvious that self-conscious women have a right to privacy from that particular group but not from other groups.

I have a horrible feeling you are going to say 'because men are a threat to women' as if somehow that has ANYTHING to do with the right to privacy that you are talking about here, but I won't put words in your mouth.

You have a right to reasonable privacy, you do not have a right to dictate who can be near you in a public space because you don't feel comfortable around them.

If you want to help me understand then I would really like to know why you believe a high-school girl has a right not to be looked at by a transwoman but no right not to be looked at by a lesbian, for example.
Preferably without bringing up things that are nothing to do with privacy.
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A naked trans woman with a penis? Seriously?
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I still don't know why you think it's so bleeding obvious that self-conscious women have a right to privacy from that particular group but not from other groups.
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Everyone has a right to privacy from anyone else. Places that require one to get naked in front of strangers do not provide that privacy.

There is no such thing as "group privacy". Segregation is not privacy.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
You have a right to reasonable privacy, you do not have a right to dictate who can be near you in a public space because you don't feel comfortable around them.
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It's always a question of privacy from whom. When using a public toilet (ETA: that is, when inside the stall and actually using the toilet), you have privacy from everyone.

In the context of a changing room, privacy does not mean privacy from everyone (as if you had a personal changing stall). The traditional standard is that you have privacy from those of the other biological sex.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
You have a right to reasonable privacy, you do not have a right to dictate who can be near you in a public space because you don't feel comfortable around them.
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You have a right to reasonable privacy, you do not have a right to dictate who must be near you in a public space because you feel more comfortable around them.
 
Earthborn said:
Everyone has a right to privacy from anyone else. Places that require one to get naked in front of strangers do not provide that privacy.

There is no such thing as "group privacy". Segregation is not privacy.
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I don't think we are disagreeing. But if you want privacy in a changing room for example then it's incumbent upon you to go use the privacy cubicle or whatever not to decree that everyone else has to get out and leave you alone.

And the right to privacy to me would mean that public places have a requirement to offer you this option.
 
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