Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
And it doesn't matter if it was Buckingham Palace. Being made to use a 'special place' because you aren't like the other kids is not a solution to making transpeople feel excluded. Which is why I said if you think it is then you don't understand the issue.
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Your argument also implies that any male who wishes should be allowed to use female spaces because being different isn't an acceptable reason to exclude them.
 
LondonJohn said:
Did you not notice that I wrote (my bolding) "in the real world, where generally there is the absence of unisex changing rooms"?
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Off the cuff generalizations require either (a) the assent of your interlocutor or (b) convincing data showing that the generalization isn't hasty. You have neither, here.

LondonJohn said:
To what would you change the label on the door?
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Either "Family Changing Room" for the large ones with certain amenities or simply "Changing Room" otherwise. No need to call out sexes, genders, or range of physical abilities if we're not limiting who can use the space.
 
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Meadmaker said:
It keeps coming up. Over and over and over.

It's never the main issue. I won't say it's completely irrelevant. It's just mostly irrelevant. It's a secondary issue.

"Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

Unless you understand that question, you'll never have a clue about the real issue here.





I must have missed this part. What's the significance of this?



Not in the US. As far as I know, there are no states that demand trans access in private facilities. i.e. if I open a gym, and in my gym I put in a "No penises in the women's locker room" policy, I don't think there is any state where that would land me in court.

In some governmental facilities, state law might require access. In some states, the opposite is true. Allowing access in government facilities might land you in court.

On the federal level, during the Obama administration a policy was announced that schools subject to title IX, which is all government run schools, had to allow trans access to their gender identity facilities, but that policy was rescinded by the Trump administration, so whether or not a school principal ends up in court would be dependent on who wins the next election.

That was true during the last election as well. I happen to believe it provided the margin of victory for Trump. No way to prove that, though.
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I mean, I thought it fairly central to any debate that each participant explained and defended their views. But if you're fed up with hearing my reasoning behind my own views, I'll be happy to omit all that extraneous info from now on. In fact, I'll probably not even waste time saying that something is a belief of mine. So:

Trans women should be allowed to use women's changing rooms.

They should also not be forced to use either men's changing rooms or disabled changing rooms.

Hoping that this new concise format is more acceptable :)
 
Emily's Cat said:
Boudicca has repeatedly expressed her opinion that the views of females are overreactions, exaggerated, hysterical, and not important.
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I thought Boudicca90 expressed that opinion* about your views, not "the views of females". Correct me if I'm wrong in that though - because I'm not saying for sure that I'm right.


ETA: * I don't recall her ever referring to your views (let alone those of "all females") as "not important" though - again, I might be wrong in that, so please let me know if that's the case.
 
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LondonJohn said:
I mean, I thought it fairly central to any debate that each participant explained and defended their views. But if you're fed up with hearing my reasoning behind my own views, I'll be happy to omit all that extraneous info from now on. In fact, I'll probably not even waste time saying that something is a belief of mine. So:

Trans women should be allowed to use women's changing rooms.

They should also not be forced to use either men's changing rooms or disabled changing rooms.

Hoping that this new concise format is more acceptable :)
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I understand, but you have also explained a solution, but it's not a solution to a real problem. You opined that if the transwoman abided by a social contract that involved keeping her penis covered, then that would be a step in the right direction.

But it isn't. Keeping her penis covered is something that darned near no one cares about. It's practically irrelevant.

The issue is not what part of the transwoman's anatomy might be seen. The big issue is that the transwoman might see something. Keeping her penis covered doesn't solve that problem, hence the question, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

(Just in case you haven't heard the anecdote before, it's a question that was asked at a school board meeting by a high school senior who objected to the presence of a transgirl in her locker room. The school board member promised that the transgirl would always wear a towel to keep her penis covered.)

ETA: And, I know that you disagree. I know you think the transgirl's right to be there is more important than the other girl's desire to maintain a sense of privacy around males. I get that. But if you're going to understand the issue, understand the real issue. Your solution addresses a problem that isn't the problem.
 
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d4m10n said:
Off the cuff generalizations require either (a) the assent of your interlocutor or (b) convincing data showing that the generalization isn't hasty. You have neither, here.
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"Off the cuff generalisations" LOL


So, firstly, are you actually trying to claim that more gyms/pools/sports facilities than not (across (say) the USA, or Europe, or Australasia) currently have unisex changing areas? Is this actually your position?

Is that position influenced in any way by the fact that you happen to currently use a facility which has a unisex changing area?

What proportion of sports/gym operations that you've ever used in your life had a) unisex changing facilities, or b) separate men's/women's/disabled facilities?

You quote one single unisex facility (and I myself have enountered one such facility myself, as I said), and then somehow seek to use that to claim that it's an "off the cuff generalisation" to state that the clear majority of gyms/pools/sports centres etc have facilities which are segregated by sex??

I suspect that most people in this real world we all inhabit know full well that the vast majority of gyms/pools and sports facilities (whether in the USA or anywhere in Europe or Australasia) currently have changing areas which are segregated by gender and disability.

But if you want to carry on arguing that point.... be my guest.


"The assent of your intolocutor" LOL



Either "Family Changing Room" for the large ones with certain amenities or simply "Changing Room" otherwise. No need to call out sexes, genders, or range of physical abilities if we're not limiting who can use the space.
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So you'd have

"Men's changing room" on one door.

"Women's changing room" on the second door.

"Family changing room" or "Changing room" on the third door?

(And remember, we are specifically discussing how you'd change the label on what is currently labelled "Disabled changing room" in a facility with men's, women's and disabled changing rooms...)
 
Meadmaker said:
I understand, but you have also explained a solution, but it's not a solution to a real problem. You opined that if the transwoman abided by a social contract that involved keeping her penis covered, then that would be a step in the right direction.

But it isn't. Keeping her penis covered is something that darned near no one cares about. It's practically irrelevant.

The issue is not what part of the transwoman's anatomy might be seen. The big issue is that the transwoman might see something. Keeping her penis covered doesn't solve that problem, hence the question, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

(Just in case you haven't heard the anecdote before, it's a question that was asked at a school board meeting by a high school senior who objected to the presence of a transgirl in her locker room. The school board member promised that the transgirl would always wear a towel to keep her penis covered.)

ETA: And, I know that you disagree. I know you think the transgirl's right to be there is more important than the other girl's desire to maintain a sense of privacy around males. I get that. But if you're going to understand the issue, understand the real issue. Your solution addresses a problem that isn't the problem.
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And I've also said previously that another part of the social contract would be that trans women would take all reasonable steps not to make other women/girls feel uncomfortable (eg by looking in the direction of those women/girls as they were getting naked).


The solution is not to ban trans women from the women's changing rooms (and it's not a lawful way to proceed anyhow). The solution is to ensure that there is a way of allowing trans women to use the women's changing rooms in a way which - as far as is reasonably possible - preseves the dignity and safety of all parties.
 
d4m10n said:
Bearing in mind that some trans women have yet to begin physical transition, should they also be allowed to use the men's?
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I already addressed this a few posts (of mine) previously.

The immediate - and unsolvable - problem with your argument here is twofold: 1) where do you set the bar on physical transition in order to allow trans women to use the women's changing rooms; and 2) How do you even begin to go about checking whether the trans woman in question crosses over or under that bar?
 
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LondonJohn said:
So, firstly, are you actually trying to claim that more gyms/pools/sports facilities than not (across (say) the USA, or Europe, or Australasia) currently have unisex changing areas? Is this actually your position?
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My position is that you took up the burden of proof on that question when you made your generalization about the real world, and that it's poor form to try to make me carry it instead.

My experience is that most gyms have at least one unisex changing area, whether labeled "family" or "handicapped" or otherwise, but I've no idea how broadly that holds true.
LondonJohn said:
I already addressed this a few posts (of mine) previously.
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Was your answer affirmative?
 
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LondonJohn said:
So you'd have

"Men's changing room" on one door.

"Women's changing room" on the second door.

"Family changing room" or "Changing room" on the third door?

(And remember, we are specifically discussing how you'd change the label on what is currently labelled "Disabled changing room" in a facility with men's, women's and disabled changing rooms...)
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Are you suggesting relabelling the facility currently set aside for a protected class, which is likely to reduce the amount of time the facility is available for them?
 
LondonJohn said:
And I've also said previously that another part of the social contract would be that trans women would take all reasonable steps not to make other women/girls feel uncomfortable (eg by looking in the direction of those women/girls as they were getting naked).
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Ok. So, that's a step in the right direction.

I think it's utterly impractical, because most of the time they are in the locker room, they are getting partially or completely naked, which is why they are in a locker room, and in order to find out if they are specifically getting naked right now, you would have to look to see them and, well, it just doesn't work.

However, at least it's an attempt to recognize that there really is an issue.

For what it's worth, I've been participating in threads like this one since 2009, and in those early days of my participation, the people familiar with trans folks would explain that trans people always followed that sort of social contract anyway. They didn't have any interest in seeing disrobed women, and they were mortified at the possibility of discovery, so of course they would remain concealed themselves.

But as time went on, there were enough cases where that just didn't happen that people generally don't say it anymore.

The solution is not to ban trans women from the women's changing rooms (and it's not a lawful way to proceed anyhow).
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In the US, it's perfectly lawful, except in some government run facilities in some states.

Whether or not it will be perfectly lawful next year depends a lot on what happens in the next two months.

ETA: I actually went back and read that first thread. Both our society and this forum have changed a lot in those eleven years.
 
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d4m10n said:
No, I was suggesting that.
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OK.

LondonJohn, I beg your pardon for misreading.

D4m10n, do you think it is an acceptable solution to reduce the availability of facilities for disabled people, who are already usually limited to one accessible room which means queuing?
 
LondonJohn said:
(And remember, we are specifically discussing how you'd change the label on what is currently labelled "Disabled changing room" in a facility with men's, women's and disabled changing rooms...)
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In the US, there is rarely a separate "disabled" room, either in bathrooms or changing rooms. Wheelchair usable facilities are provided in the regular restrooms and changing rooms.

In recent construction, there is frequently a "family" or "unisex" room. This was extremely uncommon in my youth, but is fairly standard in large buildings today. i.e. a shopping mall or sports venue is almost certain to have one, but a McDonalds might not.
 
Agatha said:
D4m10n, do you think it is an acceptable solution to reduce the availability of facilities for disabled people, who are already usually limited to one accessible room which means queuing?
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Depends on how bad the queuing problem is right now, I suppose. The rate of MtF in the general population is around 0.005% to 0.014% according to the relevant wiki so I'm not foreseeing a huge surge in usage.

p.s. Feel free to call me "Damion" if that's easier to type.
 
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