Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

Yep, and that is something I've never disagreed with and has worked well as a compromise. As well as my view that there should be more consideration of privacy in our society in general. It has never required a legal force behind it before, just basic societal expectations of behavior that we all should adhere to.

This has come up a few times, and I know I've asked something akin to this question several times now.

I agree with your view on it... but what is the expectation of natal women when the transwoman in their midst does NOT adhere to that social expectation? What is the recourse when the physically intact transwoman insists that it is her 'right' to be naked in the women's locker room, and that if her penis makes the other women uncomfortable it's incumbent upon them to leave?

 

[Emily's Cat]

So what the cis women are getting from the "give-and-take" you describe here is a new social contract by which they are assured that they won't have to see too much of anyone's external genitals in a space that used to be entirely free of them. Alas, this new social contract will have zero backing in law and may be freely repudiated without consequence.

We're also getting:
Male-bodied people setting records in women's sports
Male-bodied people being counted as women for gender quotas and affirmative action
Male-bodied people housed in prisons with women
Male-bodied people qualifying for scholarships and grants set aside to address sex-based inequities that women face
New and exciting terms that we have to use whenever we're talking about something physical and related to our female sex, terms like "cervix havers" and "people who menstruate"

... And let's not forget, we also get to be called bigots, TERFs, and get cancelled and threatened if we don't agree that all of those things are just fine.

It kind of seems like the "give and take" isn't a very equitable division here. It seems like natal women are doing all of the giving and transwomen are doing all the taking.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you think it's possible to say "I support transgender adults, but I don't believe a trans woman is a woman"?

Heck, we can even be more generous than that. I can say "I support transgender adults, and I believe that transwomen should be treated as women in almost all circumstances, and they should be protected from abuse and mistreatment on the basis of their gender identity.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think it's possible to SAY that, but it's a lie.

That's silly. It's no more a lie than you saying that you view yourself as just as much of a woman as any natal women. Your disagreement with a statement of belief does not make that belief a lie.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Cisgender women are no more or less woman than transgender women, we are just different subsets of women.

Okay, let's accept this as a starting point. What is it that cisgender women and transgender have in common? What are the characteristics and attributes of the set of women to which we both belong, but which are NOT shared with the set of men?

 

[Emily's Cat]

As I've now pointed out countless times: those who keep claiming that it's impossible to find any logic to (eg) the notion that trans women are women..... should probably not only take it up with me - they should also probably take it up with those who made the laws (parliamentarians) and administer/adjudicate the laws (courts and lawyers) in countries such as the UK and US.

Because if countries such as those have created, and are implementing, laws which cannot have any sense in logic, well, there surely must have been a legal car crash by now. Mustn't there?

I'd like to remind you of some of the laws that have been put in place in the past... Like alcohol abolition, slavery being legal, marijuana being a Class 1 substance, only nobility being allowed to own land...

If your argument relies on the assumption that because it is legally upheld, then it is factually true... I think you should reexamine your assumptions.

 

[d4m10n]

Okay, let's accept this as a starting point. What is it that cisgender women and transgender have in common? What are the characteristics and attributes of the set of women to which we both belong, but which are NOT shared with the set of men?

This has been asked so many times, so many ways. I pray to Chuthulu that someone has a good faith go at it this time around.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Really? You think that it reasonable to suppose there are a significant number of people who are prejudiced against homosexuals but totally OK with people being trans gender?

Just want to point out that we're talking about people who work at clinics that specialize specifically in transgender support and surgeries, and are very invested in transgender politics. It may not be a case of them being against homosexuals, so much as being "for trans folks". The more people that they identify and support through transitions, the more they get paid and the more power they get.

 

[Elaedith]

I'd like to remind you of some of the laws that have been put in place in the past... Like alcohol abolition, slavery being legal, marijuana being a Class 1 substance, only nobility being allowed to own land...

If your argument relies on the assumption that because it is legally upheld, then it is factually true... I think you should reexamine your assumptions.

From what I understand, the UK the Gender Recognition Act that allowed legal change of sex on documentation was introduced in 2004/5 to create a legal fiction that allowed people who had sex reassignment to marry, at a time when same-sex marriage was illegal (which placed transexuals in the position of not being able to marry someone of the opposite sex to that they presented as, because their birth certificates had same-sex markers). At that time, nobody was chanting the TWAW mantra (which comes from postmodern queer theory).

I understand in the UK only a tiny percentage of people who identify as transgender choose to change their legal documentation.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What's the difference between a transwoman and a cis man pretending to be a woman?

A deeply held internal sense of something?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh that. (Only five pages back in the thread, after all).

Again, I assumed (wrongly, it seems) that the meaning was obvious: I was highlighting (literally, in this case) the fact that you were seemingly declaring yourself proud of not understanding some of the tenets of transgenderism.

Does it not bother you at all that you express these views in religious terms?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It insults mine as well, and it is particularly baffling to hear this sort of waffle on a forum that is intended to be for sceptics and pro-science. Sadly, it's not alone in that these days.

At this rate, can "2+2=4 is white supremacy" be far behind? Don't answer that as it would be derail.

Emphasis on Scientific Method, including objective rational linear thinking, cause and effect relationships, and quantitative emphasis... are parts of whiteness and white culture in the US.

 

[Myriad]

Wow... I read the whole thing and it just confirms how easy it is to use propaganda against us to make a potential ally hate us.

All it took were the actions of one woman who does not represent all of us and who's actions have been reprehensible to turn her. And linking the trans rights movement with Naziism and the Holocaust?! Absolutely deranged.

Ironically, her attitudes towards us became much more Nazi-like after she came to this "revelation" about us. But history has shown how easy it is to get the oppressed to hate the oppressed when they are different.

Here's the only sentence in the article that mentions Nazis or the Holocaust:

More conflicting thoughts followed. Was there any evidence that transgender people were at risk of imminent extermination, similar to vulnerable groups during the Holocaust? No.

Does that constitute "linking the trans rights movement with Naziism and the Holocaust?" No, it does not.

In the rhetoric of hate, there's usually not much to choose between a truthful "I hate you" and a libelous "you're a hater."

 

[Robin]

Just want to point out that we're talking about people who work at clinics that specialize specifically in transgender support and surgeries, and are very invested in transgender politics. It may not be a case of them being against homosexuals, so much as being "for trans folks". The more people that they identify and support through transitions, the more they get paid and the more power they get.

She explicitly uses the terms 'homophobia' and 'conversion therapy' so she is not just suggesting that they are pro-trans she is explicitly saying that this is motivated by homophobia.

 

[Myriad]

Does it not bother you at all that you express these views in religious terms?

Funny you should mention that. I've been wondering whether this topic is one of those areas that's impossible to discuss coherently in a rationalist materialist mindset. Kind of like the concept of sending good wishes (sometimes referred to tellingly as "not-prayers" here) to someone facing adversity. That's why questions like "what characteristic do natal women and trans women share, that aren't shared with everyone?" cannot be answered.

In a metaphysical model, there's little difficulty. A transwoman is a female soul or spirit in a male body. A woman is anyone with a female soul or spirit, usually embodied female as well but sometimes embodied male. One can argue and discuss precisely what preferences, traits, inclinations, actions, or thoughts are or are not characteristic of a female or male soul or spirit, but as long as there's agreement that some exist that are, this doesn't introduce any deep ambiguity.

In a metaphysically constituted society, if there are doubts or ambiguities in individual cases, they are resolved by the deliberations of holy men or women. Which is gatekeeping, but that's going to be true for a lot of other things too, such as marriages and career choices. One must, after all, not make choices of which the spirits or gods disapprove.

 

[Robin]

Okay, let's accept this as a starting point. What is it that cisgender women and transgender have in common? What are the characteristics and attributes of the set of women to which we both belong, but which are NOT shared with the set of men?

This is a good question, I would like to see the answer too.

If this is becoming a matter of agreement among governments and health authorities then there should be a straightforward answer to it.

Strange that there isn't.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay, let's accept this as a starting point. What is it that cisgender women and transgender have in common? What are the characteristics and attributes of the set of women to which we both belong, but which are NOT shared with the set of men?

I've literally been asking this question in every discussion about this topic for years and I have yet to have gotten an answer.

Transgenderism seems to act as some form of semi-permeable membrane of sexual identity, containing non-transferable qualities that don't apply to either of the sexes yet someone bestow some quality of the sex upon the opposite sex with they have it.

"X isn't required to be a specific sex, but having it when you aren't that specific sex sorta makes you that specific sex anyway" seems to be where we've landed.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Funny you should mention that. I've been wondering whether this topic is one of those areas that's impossible to discuss coherently in a rationalist materialist mindset. Kind of like the concept of sending good wishes (sometimes referred to tellingly as "not-prayers" here) to someone facing adversity. That's why questions like "what characteristic do natal women and trans women share, that aren't shared with everyone?" cannot be answered.

In a metaphysical model, there's little difficulty. A transwoman is a female soul or spirit in a male body. A woman is anyone with a female soul or spirit, usually embodied female as well but sometimes embodied male. One can argue and discuss precisely what preferences, traits, inclinations, actions, or thoughts are or are not characteristic of a female or male soul or spirit, but as long as there's agreement that some exist that are, this doesn't introduce any deep ambiguity.

In a metaphysically constituted society, if there are doubts or ambiguities in individual cases, they are resolved by the deliberations of holy men or women. Which is gatekeeping, but that's going to be true for a lot of other things too, such as marriages and career choices. One must, after all, not make choices of which the spirits or gods disapprove.

I've gotten pushback for referring to transgenderism as basically arguing for the existence of "Gender Souls" but stripped of all the post-modern progressive language I'd love to know how it's functionally different.

 

[Robin]

I've gotten pushback for referring to transgenderism as basically arguing for the existence of "Gender Souls" but stripped of all the post-modern progressive language I'd love to know how it's functionally different.

Ironically 'gender souls' would put people on just the same page as Jordan Peterson.

 

[Matthew Best]

The Mandalorian star Gina Carano has been accused of “mocking trans people” after putting the words “boop/bob/beep” in her Twitter bio in lieu of pronouns.

https://www.nme.com/news/tv/the-man...carano-fired-for-mocking-trans-people-2752622