Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[The Atheist]

So you can have both "trans-women are different from cis-women" and "trans-women are just as much women as cis-women." It's not necessarily a self-contradiction.

Yeah it is, because I absolutely refuse to buy into this "cis" nonsense.

And why the hell should women buy into it? They've just spent the last couple of thousand years fighting for their rights as women, now they suddenly lose that identity and have to put some idiotic prefix in front of themselves to appease a tiny minority?

Nah.

"And I demand to play women's sports even if cis women can't compete"

The rights of the few trump the rights of the many.

Bollocks to that.

 

[LondonJohn]

I've highlighted why your explanation doesn't work. Cis women aren't getting something they didn't have before, back when no one was exposing male genitals to them or staring at them in the nude. There is no give-and-take here, women simply must adapt best as they can to new sets of norms and expectations.

When homosexuality was legalised, heterosexuals got to be able to watch (eg) two men mouth-kissing and walking arm in arm.

When the bus segregation laws were abolished in Alabama, white people got to be able to get on a crowded bus and not have a black person be legally obliged to give up their seat to the white person.

............

 

[LondonJohn]

What does that even mean? What constitutes identifying as a woman? It seems to me that you are hiding obligations you want to place on others under a label of what one chooses for oneself. And there is no universal agreement over what those obligations should be even within the trans community.

So no, it isn't logically a dichotomy. It isn't even properly defined.

As I've now pointed out countless times: those who keep claiming that it's impossible to find any logic to (eg) the notion that trans women are women..... should probably not only take it up with me - they should also probably take it up with those who made the laws (parliamentarians) and administer/adjudicate the laws (courts and lawyers) in countries such as the UK and US.

Because if countries such as those have created, and are implementing, laws which cannot have any sense in logic, well, there surely must have been a legal car crash by now. Mustn't there?

 

[LondonJohn]

The rights of the few trump the rights of the many.

Bollocks to that.

Black minority: "I demand the right to sit down on the bus, even if the bus is full and a white person boards the bus".

White majority: "The rights of the few trump the rights of the many. Bollocks to that."

 

[cullennz]

As I've now pointed out countless times: those who keep claiming that it's impossible to find any logic to (eg) the notion that trans women are women..... should probably not only take it up with me - they should also probably take it up with those who made the laws (parliamentarians) and administer/adjudicate the laws (courts and lawyers) in countries such as the UK and US.



Because if countries such as those have created, and are implementing, laws which cannot have any sense in logic, well, there surely must have been a legal car crash by now. Mustn't there?

There is a difference between rights laws recognising gender, and sex.

 

[Tanja]

"Sex is real" is a common way transphobes like to tailor their arguments to make them seem more appealing to the masses. It is saying "It doesn't matter how you feel or what you consider yourself to be or what you look like - Ultimately you will always be a man." and that view is used to deny us equal rights as women.

Yes, an androgynous cis man in your scenario would be very wrong.

A trans woman who has had GRS and has a vagina and is a woman in every way that matters? Not necessary, as there would be no issue there sexually. If I got with a trans man and he never told me he was assigned female at birth, it wouldn't bother me. As long as he has all the relevant equipment.

Boudicca,
I’m intrigued that no one else noticed this particular statement you made couple of pages ago. You are after a man with a particular set of equipment - and that’s your personal choice. But does it not bring to life the fact that sometimes, for some choices, biological sex and/or genitals are an important consideration? And not just something that transphobes think is important?

 

[cullennz]

Black minority: "I demand the right to sit down on the bus, even if the bus is full and a white person boards the bus".



White majority: "The rights of the few trump the rights of the many. Bollocks to that."

It doesn't matter how many times you try to equate it to the rights of an entire race and Civil rights in the us. The fact is it isn't.

In fact if I were mean. Which I am not. I would actually properly express how incredibly stupid that is.

 

[zooterkin]

With respect to JK Rowling, I find one thing annoying that she insists that treatment of trans gender children is being driven by homophobia.

In some specific cases, she is saying, the Tavistock Clinic in the tweet mentioned, not necessarily as a general rule.

(Twitter is absolutely **** as a medium for nuanced and detailed debate, and yet it seems to be the main medium used for it.)

 

[zooterkin]

Quotes in this thread "These concerns were explored by the recent BBC documentary about the Tavistock Clinic. Whistleblowers were talking about transitions driven by homophobia. "

or: "As I’ve said many times, transition may be the answer for some. For others, it won’t – witness the accounts of detransitioners.
“The system sees surgery as the easy fix to girls who do not conform.”"

Again, I wonder if she really believes any of that.

Why would she think she doesn't? It all seems perfectly reasonable to me. She accepts that for some people, transitioning is the answer. She is concerned that there are some trans evangelists who are pushing teens who are just going through the normal uncertainties experienced around puberty into making irreversible decisions. She appears to have some evidence to support this.

 

[cullennz]

Actually what the hell, nicely

Females: "We demand the right to sit down in a place without our history of being abused by blokes, without them there and getting help".



Blokes who think they are chicks: "The rights of the few trump the rights of the many. . "I demand the right to sit down in the same place even if it defeats the whole point of it's point, and could scare the "Other" women who happened to be born without penises".

 

[LondonJohn]

Wow.

 

[zooterkin]

Wow.

Could you be any less specific?

 

[d4m10n]

I think it's possible to SAY that, but it's a lie. People who say things like that only tend to support equal rights for us up to a certain point. Since anybody who believes we are less of a woman than cisgender women will naturally place a limit to how far they will support us.

Either they are fine with us in women's restrooms, but not in locker rooms. Or they are fine with both, and don't support us competing with other women.

The problem w/ self-i.d. in athletics is that post-pubescent males have (on average) a significant competitive advantage. It doesn't matter how womanly or feminine or well accepted the athletes are in social settings, what matters is a fair and level playing field.

 

[Ziggurat]

As I've now pointed out countless times: those who keep claiming that it's impossible to find any logic to (eg) the notion that trans women are women..... should probably not only take it up with me - they should also probably take it up with those who made the laws (parliamentarians) and administer/adjudicate the laws (courts and lawyers) in countries such as the UK and US.

It isn't merely a question of logic. There are also questions of values, of benefits and costs, and of consequences. Diametrically opposed positions can both be logical. And that's leaving off the obvious truth that laws frequently are illogical.

So none of this suffices as a response. You took a position in this thread, not legislators. I challenged you to defend your position, not people who aren't even part of this forum.

 

[Robin]

Why would she think she doesn't? It all seems perfectly reasonable to me. She accepts that for some people, transitioning is the answer. She is concerned that there are some trans evangelists who are pushing teens who are just going through the normal uncertainties experienced around puberty into making irreversible decisions. She appears to have some evidence to support this.

Really? You think that it reasonable to suppose there are a significant number of people who are prejudiced against homosexuals but totally OK with people being trans gender?

I will have to take your word that it sounds plausible

To me it sounds like an attempt to drive a wedge between the gay and the trans communities.

 

[JihadJane]

Yes, an androgynous cis man in your scenario would be very wrong.

A trans woman who has had GRS and has a vagina and is a woman in every way that matters? Not necessary, as there would be no issue there sexually. If I got with a trans man and he never told me he was assigned female at birth, it wouldn't bother me. As long as he has all the relevant equipment.

Sex isn't assigned at birth. It's observed.

No transwoman has a woman's vagina. They may have a poor imitation of one, basically just a hole, to nowhere, without any of the anatomy or functions of an actual vagina.

 

[d4m10n]

Looks like someone (you) is still ignoring the fact that "a fair and level playing field" is a relic.

Not to mention that the various laws against homicide seem not to be preventing murder. Guess we should just give up on law and order, eh?

 

[caveman1917]

Really? You think that it reasonable to suppose there are a significant number of people who are prejudiced against homosexuals but totally OK with people being trans gender?

Yes. The entire reason Iran has been at the forefront of trans rights and sex reassignment is exactly because homosexuality is forbidden in Iran, so homosexuals get the choice: execution or sex change. There is every reason to suspect that there are many such cases even in the West, not only do we have statements by former psychologists at the relevant treatment centers to that effect, but I'm surprised that you seem to think there wouldn't be plenty of people who'd prefer a heterosexual daughter over a homosexual son, out of religious or other reasons ultimately rooted in homophobia.

 

[RedStapler]

Not to mention that the various laws against homicide seem not to be preventing murder. Guess we should just give up on law and order, eh?

Please show that they are intended to do this.

Looks to me like some words on a piece of paper do a horrible job preventing murder.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove reference to derail

 

[Olmstead]

No, a lesbian can be with who they want. I'm not one to gatekeep labels like that.

But a if a lesbian is dating and having sex with a post-op trans woman, and they see them as a woman in every way, and they get disgusted when they find out that the woman they love and are attracted to used to be male at one point, that is bigotry against trans people. I would be a bigot if I did the same to a post-op trans man I was seeing.

You're not judging them on who they are, but who they used to be.

I'm judging them based on their current sex. You're the one who has reduced sexual orientation to genitals and gender identification and decided to disregard sex on behalf of your partner.