Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Olmstead]

LOL. We were not.

It really depends on the culture. In some places, everyone walks around naked in locker rooms without a second thought, in others, even people of the same sex cover up in front of each other.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So these people "know they are still male", so they have a male gender identity but present as women? Sounds more like your friends are cross dressers. Which is also fine, but wouldn't make them transgender necessarily.

Or it makes them honest and comfortable with themselves, and without the need for everyone else to participate in their beliefs.

For consideration, if a person dyes their hair brunette and never lets their roots show, but acknowledges that they are still blonde by nature, does that invalidate their hair color?

Full transsexual, who acknowledge that they are male by biology, are much more accepted by women as women than are transgender people who pretend that biology is a social construct and that a legal document saying they are female actually makes their penis a female organ.

And I looked up "truscum" and it looks like that term would refer to a transgender person who believes it is necessary to have dysphoria and medically transition to be trans. So a transperson who thinks non-binary people aren't trans would be truscum.

I find it interesting that the current vogue take on transgender issues invented a demeaning and derogatory term to apply to people who went through gender dysphoria and full medical transition at a time when there was far, far less support available. The people who paved the way for you now get labeled with an insult to rob them of their advances and paint them as an enemy.

It's kind of like how natal women get treated. No matter how supportive they are of your right to live your life without external interference, to present how you wish to, and to be treated with dignity and respect... if they don't fully capitulate to every demand that the transgender activists wish - no matter how irrational or how much it treads upon the rights of natal women - then those people are "TERFs" and "bigots".

It seems as though the only people accepted as "allies" are those who are willing to subjugate themselves to the demands of the trans activists, and to give you everything and anything that you ask for without question or discussion.

 

[Emily's Cat]

All good points, but apparently we can't compare transgender issues with any others, despite the glaring similarities.

We don't want to diminish the struggles of other rights movements by noting similarities with ours after all...

No, we can't. If we could, then that opens the door to comparisons to the entire suite of body dismorphia disorders, and I'm fairly certain you don't want that comparison made.

But we can go ahead and compare homosexuality and gender dysphoria if you want.

Homosexuality is a sexual attraction to others of the same sex. At the very worst, it is akin to a sexual fetish, focused around genitalia like one's own. Homosexuals have been mistreated at many times throughout history, predominantly as a result of religious indoctrination.

Gender dysphoria is the deeply held belief that one is not 'internally' the same sex as one's body is. At worst, it is akin to body dismorphia disorders, with a focus on sexual characteristics and socially defined behaviors. Transgender people have been mistreated at many times throughout history, for a wide variety of reasons.

To alleviate the social distress that results from the lack of acceptance of homosexuals, all we had to do was 1) ensure that they can't be fired or refused public services as a result of their sexual preference, and 2) leave them the hell alone and mind our own business.

We've made good progress toward that goal, but it's incomplete. I suspect it will be almost entirely complete once the last of the Baby Boomers dies out, simply because Gen X and later just generally don't give a crap who other people sleep with.

To alleviate the social distress that results from the lack of acceptance of transgender people, all we have to do is 1) ensure that they can't be fired or refused public services as a result of their gender identity, 2) redefine what gender means in order to accommodate their feelings and to affirm their belief about themselves, 3) provide public funding for expensive medical treatments in order to allow transgender people to look more like they envision themselves to be on the inside, 4) reduce safety measures and services for females (another group that is still oppressed and faces significant violence) in order to allow some male people to access those services as well, 5) redefine our social norms regarding nudity, especially adult nudity around children, in order to allow transgender people with unaltered anatomy to occupy the spaces of the gender with which they identify, 6) remove sex-based classes in sports so that transgender people can feel fulfilled by beating natal women who lack their physical structure and strength, 7) rewrite history and fact in order to create legal documents that let transgender people feel validated as being legally of the sex they are not, 8) consider pronouns to be hate speech if it hurts a transgender person's feelings, and 9) have everyone in the world suspend their objective perception of reality and pretend that they view transgender people as the gender they want to be seen as, regardless of whether that matches any meaningful instance of reality at all.

All in all, transgender activists are asking for a LOT more from EVERYONE than homosexuals ever did.

And that's before we even get into the subset of transgender people who label homosexuals as bigots and transphobes if they aren't interested in having sex with them.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why - by your choice of definitions - isn't a wish to inhabit another gender a "preference"?

IF it were framed as a wish and a desire, I might view it as a preference. But it isn't - it's presented as an asserted fact. Boudicca, for example, takes offence at being described as a man who wishes to be a woman. Her response is that she IS A WOMAN full stop, no questions.

Other people are asked to accept that her internal feeling of herself is more true and more important than observable reality.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It is sufficient to argue that the owners of the building warn you ahead of time when they plan a fire drill, and probably that they have a duty to research whether there are fire alarms that cause less distress for epileptics.

Or, you know, take a more common sense approach like making sure my close colleagues know I'm epileptic, plugging my ears when the alarm goes off, and having a "stairs buddy" during a fire alarm.

The people responsible for those probably have a duty to show that segregation in these cases actually does advance equality, and are not just "separate but equal" things that fail to be equal.

What are your views on Affirmative Action? Sex-based sports leagues? Scholarships designated for women? Honors set aside for accomplished women? Sex-segregated prison wards?

I'm of the opinion that all of those are things that either advance equality or provide for safety. Do you have a different take on it?

Demanding invasive medical procedures as part of punishment gets creepy really fast, and if your prison system is unable to ensure the safety of its prisoners, throwing female appearing prisoners who for whatever reason did not have surgery into the male prison ward isn't reasonable either.

I don't demand that they have it. But I don't think that there should be a blanket approach that allows untransitioned transwomen with intact penises to move to the female ward on their request. Yes, I agree that it's dangerous to put female-appearing people in the male popupation. I also, however, think it's dangerous to put male-genitaled people in the female population. Case by case with common sense seems reasonable, otherwise, find a different solution to provide extra security for at-risk transgender prisoners.

Of course that is not a claim anyone makes. The claim is just that transwomen are is much of a woman as a natal woman in the ways that matter socially.

Nobody denies these sex differences are real; least of which the people who wish they weren't.

Boudicca hasn't included that caveat, nor have I seen that caveat from many other TRAs in this thread. In my research and interaction with people, I know some transsexuals who hold that view, and I know some transgender people with that view... but I also have run across several who insist that they are just as much of a woman, end of story, no questions. And that they should have full and unfettered access to everything female with no question. Failure to comply with that view gets one branded a TERF, a bigot, and a transphobe.

 

[LondonJohn]

It seems as though the only people accepted as "allies" are those who are willing to subjugate themselves to the demands of the trans activists, and to give you everything and anything that you ask for without question or discussion.

This is neither my POV nor my experience. At. All.

I'm not speaking for anyone else, of course. But I'm a man (a "cis man"); I'm heterosexual; I'm white; and I live a relatively comfortable life in a relatively privileged country. Socio-politically, I'd describe myself (or hope to) as a progressive liberal free-marketeer with a social conscience.

And I view transgender issues in this way:

1) I recognise that gender dysphoria is a real condition, and is not related in any way to a mental disorder. I'm informed in that recognition by the settled consideration of the most eminent psychiatrists and psychologists, and the ensuing endorsement of that consideration by major health oversight bodies and many major national governments (including my own).

2) I therefore recognise that transgender people are living a valid experience.

3) I therefore believe that it is both appropriate and fair that transgender people are - so far as is practical and possible - allowed to integrate within society in a way which doesn't discriminate (or otherwise mark them out as different).

4) At the same time, I recognise the right of cisgender people (including myself) to avoid suffering distress - where that distress is reasonable.

5) I believe, with reference to all of the above, that a level of compromise from everyone is required, in order to allow transgender people to live (so far as is practical and reasonable) without being segregated, pointed at, minimised, laughed at, abused, the subject of revulsion, and so on.


I'll end by giving an example from a non-transgender area. Suppose a person born with thalidamide defects (which typically manifest as severe deformities of arms and hands (and sometimes legs)) wants to go swimming in a public baths.

What should happen? Where should that person have to change? Where should that person have to swim?

Should a man with this condition be allowed to use the men's changing rooms? It's a fair probability, after all, that a certain amount of distress or disquiet might be experienced by other men in the changing rooms when the severely-deformed man changes in their presence. And for that matter, what about everyone - men and women - in the swimming pool itself? Should we protect everyone else from the potential distress/disquiet of watching a thalidomide-deformed person use the swimming pool?

QED.

 

[LondonJohn]

Actually, I think you are the only person who recognises gender dysmorphia.

Er yes. A minor mental error (caused, I imagine, by encountering the term "body dysmorphia" more frequently in the media etc). But thank you nevertheless for your valuable contribution to this thread.

 

[Boudicca90]

IF it were framed as a wish and a desire, I might view it as a preference. But it isn't - it's presented as an asserted fact. Boudicca, for example, takes offence at being described as a man who wishes to be a woman. Her response is that she IS A WOMAN full stop, no questions.

Other people are asked to accept that her internal feeling of herself is more true and more important than observable reality.

It is a preference in the sense of I chose to transition, but I see it as a choice between living as a woman or dying as a man with the way I was going.

Coming out of the closet as gay was very similar, I can rightfully compare the two situations because I've been through both. I've said multiple times how the arguments used against trans people here are the same I heard as a gay Airman being closeted in the locker rooms and dorms while the DADT debate was going strong due to it ending, but nobody seems to care. And FYI, homosexuality is NOT just a sexual fetish, it is a valid orientation just like bisexuality, pansexuality, asexuality, heterosexuality, and so forth.

And yes, I do take offense to being called male or a man, which is why your insistence that you aren't misgendering me in the same posts where you misgender me multiple times is laughable.

 

[LondonJohn]

IF it were framed as a wish and a desire, I might view it as a preference. But it isn't - it's presented as an asserted fact. Boudicca, for example, takes offence at being described as a man who wishes to be a woman. Her response is that she IS A WOMAN full stop, no questions.

Other people are asked to accept that her internal feeling of herself is more true and more important than observable reality.

Let me re-present your statement above, with some substitutions*:

"IF it were framed as a wish and a desire, I might view it as a preference. But it isn't - it's presented as an asserted fact. David, for example, takes offence at being described as a heterosexual man who wishes to have sexual desires for other men. His response is that he IS A HOMOSEXUAL MAN full stop, no questions."


* And, once again...... I am not seeking to directly compare homosexuality and gender dysmorphia here. I am merely examining a) how people decide to self-identify, and b) how some others view the way in which those people self-identify.

 

[Olmstead]

Let me re-present your statement above, with some substitutions*:

"IF it were framed as a wish and a desire, I might view it as a preference. But it isn't - it's presented as an asserted fact. David, for example, takes offence at being described as a heterosexual man who wishes to have sexual desires for other men. His response is that he IS A HOMOSEXUAL MAN full stop, no questions."


* And, once again...... I am not seeking to directly compare homosexuality and gender dysmorphia here. I am merely examining a) how people decide to self-identify, and b) how some others view the way in which those people self-identify.

But no one has ever argued that homosexuals aren't homosexuals, because that has never been the issue for people. The issue was that they considered it morally wrong. This comparison is completely ridiculous.

 

[Boudicca90]

Or it makes them honest and comfortable with themselves, and without the need for everyone else to participate in their beliefs.

For consideration, if a person dyes their hair brunette and never lets their roots show, but acknowledges that they are still blonde by nature, does that invalidate their hair color?

Full transsexual, who acknowledge that they are male by biology, are much more accepted by women as women than are transgender people who pretend that biology is a social construct and that a legal document saying they are female actually makes their penis a female organ.


I find it interesting that the current vogue take on transgender issues invented a demeaning and derogatory term to apply to people who went through gender dysphoria and full medical transition at a time when there was far, far less support available. The people who paved the way for you now get labeled with an insult to rob them of their advances and paint them as an enemy.

It's kind of like how natal women get treated. No matter how supportive they are of your right to live your life without external interference, to present how you wish to, and to be treated with dignity and respect... if they don't fully capitulate to every demand that the transgender activists wish - no matter how irrational or how much it treads upon the rights of natal women - then those people are "TERFs" and "bigots".

It seems as though the only people accepted as "allies" are those who are willing to subjugate themselves to the demands of the trans activists, and to give you everything and anything that you ask for without question or discussion.

I am assuming you are defining "transsexual" as someone who has fully medically and surgically transitioned? Transsexual isn't used very much in the trans community these days. That is fine for the trans people who choose it, but some people like that try to insist that their way is the only way, when it isn't. Those people would be truscum.

The kind of person who would still label themselves as transsexual would have these kinds of views, as they went through a much older and incomplete view of gender dysphoria. They transitioned back when it was still considered "gender identity disorder" and considered a mental health condition, and so were guided to believe that they were delusional and need to embrace the gender they were assigned with.

We have thankfully learned much more about dysphoria and transgenderism since then and realize that it is a valid and real identity and that gender is far more complex than we previously thought. But there are still people who sadly and unfortunately were harmed by transitioning during a time when we had a lot less knowledge.

But I can see how people like that would fit in fine in your worldview because they know their place. You can treat them as victims of their delusions instead of equals.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is neither my POV nor my experience. At. All.

Also wasn't a response to you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It is a preference in the sense of I chose to transition, but I see it as a choice between living as a woman or dying as a man with the way I was going.

Coming out of the closet as gay was very similar, I can rightfully compare the two situations because I've been through both. I've said multiple times how the arguments used against trans people here are the same I heard as a gay Airman being closeted in the locker rooms and dorms while the DADT debate was going strong due to it ending, but nobody seems to care. And FYI, homosexuality is NOT just a sexual fetish, it is a valid orientation just like bisexuality, pansexuality, asexuality, heterosexuality, and so forth.

I didn't say it was just a fetish. I said it was akin to a sexual fetish.

And yes, I do take offense to being called male or a man, which is why your insistence that you aren't misgendering me in the same posts where you misgender me multiple times is laughable.

This is where things go sideways. You take offense at the actual real nature of your own existence. Someone acknowledging the fact that you are male is something you see as a grave injustice and proof of bigotry.

You are male. You are not female.

If that deeply offends you to the point where you think it is bigotry and tantamount to hate speech... well, I think that's a problem you need to sort out with your own biology and genetics. It is not my fault that you feel offended by the existence of your own body. And it is irrational for you to feel entitled to obligate other people to ignore reality in favor of your feelings.

 

[Boudicca90]

But no one has ever argued that homosexuals aren't homosexuals, because that has never been the issue for people. The issue was that they considered it morally wrong. This comparison is completely ridiculous.

Lol, what?! One of the main arguments against homosexuality is that it isn't real and that it is just "weakness" that happens in certain situations.

That we are all straight because that's how "god" has made us and that homosexuality is us going against our innate nature. People have always tried to argue there is no such thing as homosexuality, so this is just straight up wrong.

 

[LondonJohn]

Also wasn't a response to you.

Again:

I was responding to (what appeared to me to be) a clearly generalised statement of yours which read:

"It seems as though the only people accepted as "allies" are those who are willing to subjugate themselves to the demands of the trans activists, and to give you everything and anything that you ask for without question or discussion."


Are you saying that I don't fit your description of someone "accepted as an "ally"" of transgender people and their issues?

 

[Boudicca90]

I didn't say it was just a fetish. I said it was akin to a sexual fetish.


This is where things go sideways. You take offense at the actual real nature of your own existence. Someone acknowledging the fact that you are male is something you see as a grave injustice and proof of bigotry.

You are male. You are not female.

If that deeply offends you to the point where you think it is bigotry and tantamount to hate speech... well, I think that's a problem you need to sort out with your own biology and genetics. It is not my fault that you feel offended by the existence of your own body. And it is irrational for you to feel entitled to obligate other people to ignore reality in favor of your feelings.

I don't think it's necessarily hate speech per se, but it is offensive and shows the lack of consideration you give us. My biology and genetics has very little to do with anything we have been discussing, as being XY vs. XX ultimately doesn't mean anything in terms of gender, and has no relevance to anything else either in the wider world (except when dealing with medical conditions).

My biological sex is "male" in the sense that I am XY and can't change that. But it means nothing, because I am female in every way it matters.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We have thankfully learned much more about dysphoria and transgenderism since then and realize that it is a valid and real identity and that gender is far more complex than we previously thought. But there are still people who sadly and unfortunately were harmed by transitioning during a time when we had a lot less knowledge.

Yes, it's a shame that they were able to accept themselves and generally find happiness and contentment with their lives, in contrast to the continuing distress and anxiety experienced by people who identify as transgender without the supporting therapy and purposeful approach. It's truly horrible that they find acceptance by women as a woman.

But I can see how people like that would fit in fine in your worldview because they know their place. You can treat them as victims of their delusions instead of equals.

*Sigh* It's not about transgender people "knowing their place", it's about transgender people allowing females to have female places without transgender people insisting that females must give way for the desires of transgender people!

Honestly, how are you not seeing this? You are berating me for hypothetically telling you to "know your place" which I haven't done... but which you infer because I don't agree with every assertion you make in the face of objective reality. But simultaneously, you demean women in general, you label them as bigots and TERFs, you deride them and treat women as being less important than you.

You consistently dehumanize the very people you claim to identify as. You treat natal women as if they have less womanhood than you. You treat females as if they are less important and less worthy of being heard than you.

And for what it's worth, I see a fully transitioned transsexual as being a lot less delusional than a bearded male who presents as male claiming to be a woman in every meaning of the term. I see transsexuals as being far less deluded than transgender people who claim to have "female penises" and who try to redefine the word "woman" so it no longer has any meaning for females.

 

[LondonJohn]

But no one has ever argued that homosexuals aren't homosexuals, because that has never been the issue for people. The issue was that they considered it morally wrong. This comparison is completely ridiculous.

You don't know that until not so long ago, it used to be believed that homosexuals could be "cured" of their "illness"?? That it was seen as an affliction and/or aberration, and that treatment could "help" the person to become "normal" again, such that they'd find exclusively that they had sexual desires for the opposite sex??


I really suggest you do some research into these sorts of issues before writing something like that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Again:

I was responding to (what appeared to me to be) a clearly generalised statement of yours which read:

"It seems as though the only people accepted as "allies" are those who are willing to subjugate themselves to the demands of the trans activists, and to give you everything and anything that you ask for without question or discussion."


Are you saying that I don't fit your description of someone "accepted as an "ally"" of transgender people and their issues?

I would say that you view yourself as an ally, and likewise I view myself as an ally. But I think that many trans rights activists would insist that you aren't a "real ally" because you don't agree with every item on the list and you have some reasonable limitations in mind.

 

[Boudicca90]

Again:

I was responding to (what appeared to me to be) a clearly generalised statement of yours which read:

"It seems as though the only people accepted as "allies" are those who are willing to subjugate themselves to the demands of the trans activists, and to give you everything and anything that you ask for without question or discussion."


Are you saying that I don't fit your description of someone "accepted as an "ally"" of transgender people and their issues?

Don't worry, I consider you an ally. Certainly much more than Emily, who thinks she can police who we consider allies.